extended C6 or Uni B6 or XXX?

[Tom Gorr]

I have an underutilized E9/B6 single body uni (Emmons PP) with very heavy action..

Frankly it sounds in its natural place playing saxophone-ish leads from a straight B6 tuning just with the bar... No pedals needed but that would be really limiting and mostly a studio application. I do have some casual jazz stuff in my broader music life right now.. Moreso than E9 in terms of my current interest area.


I am thinking about investing in having it setup as a extended C6 or B6 based Uni. (Eg B6/E9 rather than E9/B6)

I really have no idea as to the utility of extended C6..havent studied it much.. Anything lower than the big fat C is a waste I think as I very rarely even use that..but a high G and D would be useful.

Ideally 5 knee levers and up to 7 pedals as I do not know how I would function without 5x5 on the C6 neck of my D10.

Ideas, advice?

[Pete Burak]

Larry Bell has a nice breakdown on tunings and is also a PP E9/B6 guy.
Might be worth a read:
http://www.larrybell.org/id5.htm

I have a Uni PP and the main thing I didn't like is that my A-pedal C# is a tuned a little flat of my P7-C#.
This means the string-5 A-pedal C# would never make that glorious "Body Contact" when depressed.
I took P7 off, and just use the A-pedal as a P7 substitute.
fwiw, imho/ime, The Uni tuning basically overloads the PP mechanism, from a "pedal-action" standpoint (pedals and levers get stiffer as you add more changes).

[Lee Baucum]

Tom - It looks like you want to do something similar to what the Bb6 players do.

For what it's worth, here is how I set up my Emmons universal long ago.

https://b0b.com/tunings/baucum.htm

[Pete Burak]

Also, The first 3 strings on my Uni's are:
1-D#
2-G#
3-F#

This puts you in a more logical string order for 6th style playing, and strings 2-5 are in the same order as strings 6-9.
As a lifelong S12U player, this actually makes more sense to me from an E9th standpoint, also.

[Tom Campbell]

Pette...I have that same that string order on my 12 string Uni and my 10 string Uni. I play more B6 than E9...that F# must in that linier order.

Also discovered if I raise that F# to a G with my RKR lever I can get the same "lick's" pattern as the top two strings of an E9 tuning...ie. E to G (minor) or E to G# (Major) intervals.

[Tom Gorr]

Larry Bell has a nice breakdown on tunings and is also a PP E9/B6 guy.
Might be worth a read:
http://www.larrybell.org/id5.htm

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The Uni tuning basically overloads the PP mechanism, from a "pedal-action" standpoint (pedals and levers get stiffer as you add more changes).

Hi Pete, yes I have also been playing an MSA S12U E9/B6 for 20 years... Recall my 5x5 RiSC coped? Lol.

Yes the stiff action is what kills my interest in playing the PP uni... While I probably need the exercise and muscle strength, I prefer the gym..

If this was a 10 string PP I wpuld know exactly what to do with it.. It would get a duplication of my D10 C6 coped. But it has 12 strings.

CFACEGACEGDF. BOTTOM TO TOP?

[Pete Burak]

Maybe just play it as a 10-string for now then?

[Tom Gorr]

You are probably aware of the level of patience and expertise required to setup a PP...

If I do this, it will cost some $ and require a couple plane flights. So I am soliciting how best to aporoach it as a permanent 12 string instrument.

The knee levers available in a full C6 coped are very important to me.

Going to look into this Bb6 coped thing Lee talks about.

[Pete Burak]

Tom, I was thinking maybe just start backing off lock-collars until it plays like butter?
No major surgury.

On the other hand... there are always a few guys who want to buy a S12U PP.
Maybe sell yours?
I just bought an 80's MCI S12U, and it is a breeze to work on.
I think you could find a used S12U that is much easier to experiment with than a Push Pull.
If you have gone D10 maybe just stay in the 10 string world?
There are some S10 C6th steels out there, too.

[Larry Bell]

I can (and often DO) play my two Emmons push-pull U-12 guitars barefoot. A number of things (mostly shock springs and pedal return springs) can contribute to heavy action on a push-pull. A little shock spring is fine to even out pulls, but things can get stiff. Same goes for the spring that returns the pedal (front apron). I just minimized those and it plays like butter. It's a very simple machine. If adjusted properly, it is as solid as a rock. Tuning is also stable . . . and then there's that S O U N D and its presence in a room.

[Olli Haavisto]

I have a single 12 pp universal, 7x5, set up by Bobby Bowman.
It plays as easy as any all pull I`ve played...

[Tom Gorr]

Pete, I have to say that nothing is as cool as playing bar leads on this guitar.. The tone breathes and is totally liquid and organic from top to bottom... A very fine example.
I really want to find a way to make it work for me. I know I will bond with it when it is right.

Larry, thanks for your input. Socks=perfect. I have read that an SD12 has easier action than a S12 simple due to distance between changer and finger offers better leverage on that higher deck.

Olie, since yours is single unit width, anyway you can send me a rodding diagram that covers off leverage and spring cushions and any gear downs? ... also string set gauge info? If too much work I understand.

[Pete Burak]

Pete, I have to say that nothing is as cool as playing bar leads on this guitar...

I hear ya! (I took delivery of mine in Sept '82 and am looking at it right now 'Love 'em).

Can you post or list the pedal/lever copedant so we can see how it is set up now?

Quick story, I played my single-body Emmons Push Pull S12U Jeff Newman E9/B6 7x4 for 10 years, on the average of 5 nights a week, 5-45min sets a night, before I ever went to a Steel Convention.
I went right over to Jeff Newman, who I spent a week with in '82, and said, Hey Jeff I bought an Emmons Push Pull S12U right after your class in '82.
The very first thing he said was, "I bet the pedals are stiff!". He had tried one, too.
I had no idea that there was any other pedal action, because I had no other Steel to play or try during that entire timeframe.

I once ran into a guy with an Emmons that had welded pedal extansions on each wide-pedal (about 2-inches longer).
It wasn't pretty, but that extra length really made the pedal action better by changing the fulcrom point.