undercarriage noise in recordings

Hamilton Belk · Post by **Hamilton Belk** » 9 Sep 2018 9:39 pm

I recently tried to reduce the amount of undercarriage noise that is getting transmitted through the pickup on my emmons p/p. I read a bunch of threads on this issue and tried 1/2" rubber foam beneath the pickup. I also tried foam and then rubber bands on the pedal rod hooks, as that contact point was producing a lot of clicking noise. The worst noise though seems to come from the changer fingers hitting the endplate adjustment screws. Not sure what to do about that. It's really more the clicking than the rattling that is a problem for me.

Has anyone had any success in damping these sounds in ways I might not be aware of? I don't really want to seal the pickup.

Here are some pictures of my attempted solutions, which got me 30 to 40% of the way there I'd say. Did I do anything stupid?

mtulbert · Post by **mtulbert** » 10 Sep 2018 4:23 am

Pretty new to Push Pulls. Played through my recording setup doing a solo and did not hear any noise from the mechanism getting onto the recording. Perhaps the pickup is the culprit. Not sure but if it is getting microphonic, that could be a cause of your problem.

Hopefully one of the experts can step in and help.

regards,

Lane Gray · Post by **Lane Gray** » 10 Sep 2018 4:28 am

If you've narrowed it to the "split" screws, you could put a dab of Plasti-Dip on the very tips of the screws: Plasti-Dip is the rubbery stuff designed to make hand tools rubber-gripped.
There are also Delrin "top hats" for screws that will turn metal-to-metal contact into metal-to-Delrin.
For a temporary solution that I don't like, put a small spot of Gorilla Tape (or those felt dots for furniture feet) on the fingers where they meet the screws.

Bill Moore · Post by **Bill Moore** » 10 Sep 2018 5:31 am

Maybe your recording technique is the problem. If you are recording direct, you will probably pick up some of those noises. Perhaps isolate the guitar from the amp, maybe put it in another room, and turn up the amp to a reasonable level. That is what I would try.

mtulbert · Post by **mtulbert** » 10 Sep 2018 5:42 am

The original post did not talk about recording. I did and did not hear any mechanical noise. I did go direct.

Noise is coming from the mechanics to the pickup.

Hamilton Belk · Post by **Hamilton Belk** » 10 Sep 2018 6:34 am

Bill Moore wrote:Maybe your recording technique is the problem. If you are recording direct, you will probably pick up some of those noises. Perhaps isolate the guitar from the amp, maybe put it in another room, and turn up the amp to a reasonable level. That is what I would try.

Bill, thanks for the advice. I recorded from the DI out on my peterson stomp classic and send the signal from the line out of the tuner to the amp. You're saying that the noises could be in the one but not the other? If the noises are getting in the pickup won't they be transmitted in the DI signal and to the amp and thus amplified?

I'm pretty sure the noises in the mic are from the electric signal from the pickup.

Bob Hoffnar · Post by **Bob Hoffnar** » 10 Sep 2018 7:06 am

I would start all over and look at your issue again. Something is not adding up. I would highly suggest removing all of those modifications and get in touch with me. We can figure out what the problem is in a simple Skype call.

Bill Moore · Post by **Bill Moore** » 10 Sep 2018 7:09 am

Well, the only times I've ever heard mechanical noises from the push pulls I've had is when playing quietly. If you do hear these noises at higher volumes, I would also think that you might want to try a different pickup. If the pickup is microphonic, it will amplifiy the extra noises too.

Lane Gray · Post by **Lane Gray** » 10 Sep 2018 7:38 am

I cannot explain why my brain turned push-pull into Carter.
For the push-pull, if you're hearing them loudly enough in the signal to be annoying at levels above 'bedroom level,' you definitely have a microphonic pickup, and you can either replace the pickup or try to put a thin layer of dense foam or rubber between the pickup and the bracket it mounts on.
I'd attack it there rather than try to quiet every single part of the undercarriage.

Franklin · Post by **Franklin** » 10 Sep 2018 7:38 am

Hamilton,
It could be that your pickups or your guitar cables are microphonic. If so they will amplify every click on any guitar. George L's and Bill Lawrence cables are known for going microphonic....

The pedal stops for tuning should function as definite as possible...Metal to metal is the absolute best for stable tuning...Putting any type of softening between metal to metal contacts will cause unstable tuning issues because they start to wear. As a side note, the reason a PP sounds the way it does is largely due tothe very things that make it click......

Good news....The guitars were recorded 20 years before iso booths or going direct was prominent...I would not go direct no matter what....Use an amp and throw a blanket over it to baffle outside noise away from the microphone. Or move the steel 10 feet from the amp and microphone...Use a directional mic like the 421...Mic it slightly off center (About 2'' left or right of the center cone for the best tone).
My 2 cents
Paul

Barry Blackwood · Post by **Barry Blackwood** » 10 Sep 2018 7:47 am

The original post did not talk about recording.

True, but the title of the post is, "Undercarriage noise in recordings."

Ricky Davis · Post by **Ricky Davis** » 10 Sep 2018 8:39 am

I would not go direct no matter what....Use an amp and throw a blanket over it to baffle outside noise away from the microphone. Or move the steel 10 feet from the amp and microphone...Use a directional mic like the 421...Mic it slightly off center (About 2'' left or right of the center cone for the best tone).
My 2 cents
Paul

I totally agree with Paul(of course..ha.) as this is the only way I record. I too play a VERY old mechanical Pedal steel with single coil pickup and I get NO complaints of noise or hum on many movie soundtracks and commercials I'm on...which to me is the most delicate recordings.
Ricky

Tommy Detamore · Post by **Tommy Detamore** » 10 Sep 2018 8:58 am

I get it with my PP's and my perm. It's usually never really an issue unless I'm sustaining something with the volume pedal during a quite moment in a track, and I activate a pedal or a lever. If it is egregious enough I remove the "clack" from the audio file manually with Izotope RX

Hamilton Belk · Post by **Hamilton Belk** » 10 Sep 2018 9:08 am

Franklin wrote:. Or move the steel 10 feet from the amp and microphone...Use a directional mic like the 421...Mic it slightly off center (About 2'' left or right of the center cone for the best tone).
My 2 cents
Paul

I've been using an SM7 dead center on my session 400. I'll try it a bit off axis

Hamilton Belk · Post by **Hamilton Belk** » 10 Sep 2018 9:09 am

Tommy Detamore wrote:I get it with my PP's and my perm. It's usually never really an issue unless I'm sustaining something with the volume pedal during a quite moment in a track, and I activate a pedal or a lever. If it is egregious enough I remove the "clack" from the audio file manually with Izotope RX

Yes, I have been doing quite a bit of izotope voodoo!

Hamilton Belk · Post by **Hamilton Belk** » 10 Sep 2018 9:13 am

Ricky Davis wrote:
I totally agree with Paul(of course..ha.) as this is the only way I record. I too play a VERY old mechanical Pedal steel with single coil pickup and I get NO complaints of noise or hum on many movie soundtracks and commercials I'm on...which to me is the most delicate recordings.
Ricky

I get a decent hum at 180 HZ which I always notch out

Marc Jenkins · Post by **Marc Jenkins** » 10 Sep 2018 12:39 pm

Ricky Davis wrote:
I would not go direct no matter what....Use an amp and throw a blanket over it to baffle outside noise away from the microphone. Or move the steel 10 feet from the amp and microphone...Use a directional mic like the 421...Mic it slightly off center (About 2'' left or right of the center cone for the best tone).
My 2 cents
Paul
I totally agree with Paul(of course..ha.) as this is the only way I record. I too play a VERY old mechanical Pedal steel with single coil pickup and I get NO complaints of noise or hum on many movie soundtracks and commercials I'm on...which to me is the most delicate recordings.
Ricky

Ricky, do you have any felt pads in the undercarriage on your LDG?

Jim Pitman · Post by **Jim Pitman** » 10 Sep 2018 1:55 pm

I second Paul's hypothesis, ie, microphonic pickup. Try this - If you can sing into it and here your voice coming through the amp, then your pickup needs wax potting so its coils don't move around.

Ricky Davis · Post by **Ricky Davis** » 10 Sep 2018 4:09 pm

Ricky, do you have any felt pads in the undercarriage on your LDG?

No Felt or anything that can eventually detune through wear; like Paul Franklin said. John Coop talked me into that very hard plastic rod washer and just screw a 3/8 length piece on any stop screw...so metal hits that instead of metal screw...and that helps.
But the main source of me keeping from so much noise and hum being recorded(as Tommy Detamore can attest to as I have recorded a million songs in his studio btw..ha.) is my Volume pedal; as I use a old ShoBud volume pedal with allen bradley 500K pot...and as long as you don't open the Pot all the way or even more that 3/4's of the way....that will cut down on the noise signaled to the amp from the guitar/volume pedal...>then; you will have to turn your amp up more for him(yes him is Tommy..that greatest Engineer I have EVER worked with and produced with) and you have work on that volume pedal technique of just closed to 3/4 full volume.
Ricky

Jim Sliff · Post by **Jim Sliff** » 10 Sep 2018 4:30 pm

A third vote for a microphonic pickup. With few exceptions mechanical noises, whether changer noises in a pedal steel, tremolo "stop" and spring noises in 5-strings, noises from turning volume or tone controls to their stops in anything and so on emanate from a mechanical source but are rarely transmitted to the amp or direct box unless the pickup(s) is microphonic.

Try physically tapping on the pickup cover (or edge of the bobbin if exposed) with a chopstick, wooden spoon handle, plastic stick - anything non-metallic. with the amp of recording gear at a mid volume setting.

If the tapping is clearly noticeable your problem is primarily electromechanical. Neither single coil nor humbucking pickups should significantly respond to mechanical vibration or shock. It can be caused by loose windings in older pickups or loose/defective missing potting material in any of them.

Any qualified guitar tech can do the testing of verify your findings. If that is the problem solutions are "potting" the pickup coil(s) in hot wax (NOT a DIY process), having the pickup rewound or replacing it.

Most mechanical "silencing" efforts are a waste of time until the pickup is tested and either eliminated as a contributing factor or repaired/replaced.

Good luck!

Marc Jenkins · Post by **Marc Jenkins** » 10 Sep 2018 4:49 pm

Ricky Davis wrote:
Ricky, do you have any felt pads in the undercarriage on your LDG?
No Felt or anything that can eventually detune through wear; like Paul Franklin said. John Coop talked me into that very hard plastic rod washer and just screw a 3/8 length piece on any stop screw...so metal hits that instead of metal screw...and that helps.
Ricky

Great, thanks! Iâ€™ve just stripped my 6139 down and cleaned it up, reassembling tomorrow. Perfect timing!

Dale Rottacker · Post by **Dale Rottacker** » 11 Sep 2018 10:04 am

Hamilton Belk wrote:
Franklin wrote:. Or move the steel 10 feet from the amp and microphone...Use a directional mic like the 421...Mic it slightly off center (About 2'' left or right of the center cone for the best tone).
My 2 cents
Paul
I've been using an SM7 dead center on my session 400. Iâ€™ll try it a bit off axis

Hamiltion, I did this recording a few years ago, much like Paul described

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pknuzY0bVB0

the difference was that I did this with a Session 500 and an SM-57 where I could reach the knobs on the amp as I was playing....
I put a foam pillow between the mic and the rear left leg of my Mullen, with the Mic 2â€ off the axis and at a 90 degree angle to my guitar...
I donâ€™t claim to have the best ears, but I donâ€™t hear any pedal noise here, and I did before I added that pillow, a lot of noise...
Mind you a Mullen isnâ€™t going to be a noisy as a PP, but that mic was within 2 1/2-3 feet from the pedals... Good Luck!!!

Andrew Roblin · Post by **Andrew Roblin** » 11 Sep 2018 12:07 pm

Ricky, What is "very hard plastic rod washer"?

Ricky Davis · Post by **Ricky Davis** » 12 Sep 2018 8:12 am

Andrew> this
https://images.homedepot-static.com/pro ... 4_1000.jpg
or a nylon acorn nut....> really any small Nylon or plastic piece that will screw onto a stop screw.
Ricky

David Mitchell · Post by **David Mitchell** » 12 Sep 2018 10:53 pm

If you are recording an instrumental album for RCA Victor I can tell you how to totally eliminate any noise. I mean zero noise. First don't use a ZB. Second use humbucking pickups. Now you will do a process called re-amping. Record your steel direct to the mixing console or interface. While you are recording you can monitor your sound as you usually do through your amp. For Goodrich volume pedals send one output feed to your amp as usual and send another signal to the recorder. Record your album that way. Now when you are finished and ready to mix send a cable from the output track of your recorder/console back to your guitar amp and play the tape and record your amp with a microphone going on another track. This procedure let's you record with no pedal noise but still have the benefit of an amp. It also gives you all kinds of EQ and reverb options with your amp even after it has been recorded! You also have two tracks to play with, a mic'd and a direct track. The other way is put your amp in an entirely different room than you are in and mic that. You'll need good headphones to monitor with doing it that way. For live gigs there's so much noisy crap going on no one would notice 5 slot machines in use on stage.