understanding your steel

Farris Currie · Post by **Farris Currie** » 23 Aug 2005 12:19 pm

Just wondering how many really understand your steel??what makes it work,and how.could you tear it all apart and reset it to where it is right setup?

so much said about this is for steel guitars and this is a topic i feel needs discussing for help to us all.

no certain guitar,just what makes it work?
does your steel feel and play right?how can i improve the feel of it?
farris

Richard Sinkler · Post by **Richard Sinkler** » 23 Aug 2005 12:37 pm

I fully understand the way my Carter works and can make changes to it with little problem. My problem as I get older is with patience. Heck, I don't have the patience to change a flat tire anymore if I don't have to (proved that this past weekend).

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Carter D10 9p/10k, NV400

Brent LaBeau · Post by **Brent LaBeau** » 23 Aug 2005 12:53 pm

Great thread! Conceptually, yes. It makes complete sense.
Mechanically, no. I don't have a clue.
I would love to find a tutorial, of sorts, to help me understand the intricacies inherent to this beast.
If I understood more of the actual inner workings I might not be so hesitant to start replacing the pot metal on my LDG ('80's model) with Coop's super parts.
Any guidance there would be GREATLY appreciated.

Rev. LaBeau

Larry Robbins · Post by **Larry Robbins** » 23 Aug 2005 1:08 pm

Farris my friend,
Good topic.On my PRO III yes I pretty much have it figured out thanks to trial and error(lots of errors) and a big thanks to Bobbe Seymours maintainence video!But, my 73 Pro II with the brass barrels and two hole pullers....not so confident.....Can do some things but never had the chance or had it explained to me so just got to go by trial and error.Thank the Good Lord that its the model that it is and doesn't need too much adjustment!...Love them BUDS!!!

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73 PRO II, 79/80 PRO III
Steelkings,Fender guitars,Preston covers,
and Taylor(Tut that is)
Reso's
"Of all the things Ive lost in life, I miss my mind the most"

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 23 Aug 2005 1:13 pm

I love mechanics, and I think I understand them pretty well! I've yet to come across a steel that I feel I couldn't make significant improvements on, both in how it's designed, and how it's built. Each manufacturer seems to get a few things right, and a few not-so-right. Some things really bug me, like the two tuning keys that bump each other on my p/p Emmons. Plainly, that type of defect should have never made it into production. Instead, they built thousands with that same problem!

No excuse for that type of thing, and I've found similar types of things on just about every steel I've ever seen.

Go figure.

Farris Currie · Post by **Farris Currie** » 23 Aug 2005 1:20 pm

Wow,can't believe the quick response!!Ok,lets see what we can learn together!!Love to know how things work,i've got 5 sho-buds right now,and a marlen,love to tear them all to pcs. and rebuild them one at a time, and really understand what i'm doing.
suppose all of us are in the same boat??
see what we can learn OK. farris

Farris Currie · Post by **Farris Currie** » 23 Aug 2005 4:04 pm

OK,lets hope mabe John Coop will join in and lead us thru how to update our steels.
right with a teacher to guide us,why not give it a shot? farris

Billy Carr · Post by **Billy Carr** » 23 Aug 2005 4:12 pm

I make adjustments on any guitar I buy whether it's used or new. I like the pedals/KL's to have a easy feel to them. The CARTER guitars are the easy ones for me to move things around on. The biggest problem I've run into over the years is pull rods touching/binding and guitars w/o any lube(oil). I think the all-pull guitars are easier to work on. Having a box with tools, wrenches,etc. to fit every brand helps to.

Michael Barone · Post by **Michael Barone** » 23 Aug 2005 4:53 pm

Like Donny, I love the mechanics of this instrument. Last winter I wanted to add LKL and 2 pedals. I was hesitant, until I found this forum! I'll never forget the load of confidence I got upon receiving advice from Ricky Davis and many other experts. Thanks to the forum I have LKL & 2 pedals added, found the right pickup, successfully fixed pedal travel problems, splits, multiple lowers using barrel tuners, and I completed my experiment with a Right Heel Left Lever (RHL).

Now that I finally have my copedent, I also have a guitar that stays in tune for days and doesn't break strings. I never thought I would accomplish this.

A pretty good return for 5 bucks. Man have I learned a lot here in 6 months.

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Mike Barone
Sho-Bud Pro-1 5&4 with RHL | Nashville 112
Assorted Guitars & Keyboards

Farris Currie · Post by **Farris Currie** » 23 Aug 2005 4:55 pm

Thanks Billy,yep,i have never bought a steel that felt right at the first,new or used. knee pedals are always in the wrong place,and to hard, i hate to hit knees and almost move the whole guitar. and to long of a stroke just drives me nuts. seems to me the left knee left is always a long stroke. and the B C pedals is a pain to get set right for me it seems.and you are right about tools,hard to have the right allen wrenchs ect. until getting stocked up.
farris

Loren Morehouse · Post by **Loren Morehouse** » 23 Aug 2005 7:44 pm

Sooner or later you've got to get your hands in there. Whether it's adjusting travel on the pedals or knees, etc. Just get in there. No one will touch my guitar but me!! My guitar is so modified I could rebuild it blind folded. Loren.

Craig A Davidson · Post by **Craig A Davidson** » 23 Aug 2005 9:58 pm

Up here I have to be my own push-pull doctor. Once in awhile things move and there is nobody but me to put it back. It can be fun.

richard burton · Post by **richard burton** » 24 Aug 2005 12:08 am

What's the mystery?

It's basically simple mechanics, nothing advanced at all.

To me, the underside of any pedal steel is a glorified Meccano set !!

(Indeed, many retrofitted bits on my Emmons push-pull ARE pieces of Meccano !)

R B

Ben Elder · Post by **Ben Elder** » 24 Aug 2005 1:27 am

For someone whose eighth-grade mechanical reasoning and technical competence scores fell off the left side of the results page (academic subjects: 85th-percentile up), no mechanics are simple. At least I'm removing myself from the Behind-the-Looking-Glass world of ZBs and would be trying to comprehend the Sho-Bud rack-and-barrel system if I had any room to turn The Professional upside down. And soon, there will be the utter common sense of an S-10 BMI. (Same guy who designed the ZBs--astonishing...)

"Meccano"? Is that a Continental equivalent of an Erector Set? (Perhaps my parents knew better than to buy me one.)

Jim Peters · Post by **Jim Peters** » 24 Aug 2005 3:51 am

I fought with my ZB, my 1st guitar, for my 1st. 6 mths.of playing. I sold it, got a GFI keyless s10. When it arrived, it was setup Day. I changed it to Emmons in about an hour and a half, and haven't had to adjust anything underneath in over a year!
I,m a former bodyman and mechanic,and not afraid to work on anything, but that ZB was ridiculous. I want to learn to play it, not maintain it, and 75lbs vs 35lbs up the steps every gig is another big factor. JimP

Willis Vanderberg · Post by **Willis Vanderberg** » 24 Aug 2005 6:05 am

Hey Farris, good topic.
I think one of the most important aspects of learning your guitar is to turn it upside down and study what everything does.
When you understand why the rod is in a certain hole on the bell crank and the changer you become aware of the mechanical advantage of that set up. Also write down the position of the rods before you start to make a change. It will save a lot of time. There are a lot of tricks to make your horn play easier , quieter, more in tune and so on.The bad new is , even though I understand the guitar I will never be a great picker.When are we going to have that cup of coffee ?
Bud

Farris Currie · Post by **Farris Currie** » 24 Aug 2005 6:25 am

Enjoying the responses very much.I to am a machinist,and built farm machinery for 35yrs. But the steel guitar is a monster in its self. Amazes me how things can look so good underside,then seems for no reason jump out of tune,and go wild.I built a few single finger steels yrs ago for students who couldn't afford one. it was a challenge for me,and machining the parts is exciting toooooo. Everthing must be just right.

Then there is the sound,tone matter.trying to make your guitar sound better.
also staying in tune perfect.things will sound great,then on one frett all at once a string doesn't blend.you adjust then things sometimes goes worse!!I am a nut for tuning by ear,LOVE IT. I use to take the lead guitar players guitar away from him,and say let me tune that thing. it would sound so bad.A lead guitar is terrible if the harmonics are not set right.

No a steel is nothing to be scared up to work on,just try to study and understand what your gonna do.Lots i still scratch my head on. Like Ricky says take those little springs out on certain pullers.then i go to studying,and figuring out what i'm doing.

Yep i'm chomping at the bits to install a complete on a sho-bud with parts from John Coop. Wanting to and nervous at the same time. right now i'm recooping from buying 2 steels last month. i just can't stand to see a nice steel go by. but now i can,i'm maxed hahahhaha farris

Charlie McDonald · Post by **Charlie McDonald** » 24 Aug 2005 6:31 am

Just buy yourself a Red Baron. You'll think you're going to have to be real smart to understand and set up a steel.

My Carter requires none 'o that. So straightforward I can do it all. I think that's what a steel is supposed to do. Some of us don't want to be a mechanic, we just want to play.

Ray Minich · Post by **Ray Minich** » 24 Aug 2005 6:55 am

Farris, I understand my Steel, it just doesn't understand me

Seriously, though, coming from a family where we always fixed our own stuff, the PSG is really as simple as a Model A Ford transmission. It can also be as uncooperative.

Larry Bell · Post by **Larry Bell** » 24 Aug 2005 7:05 am

Hello, I'm Larry and I'm your basic mechano-klutz.

I think there are two reasons to understand your guitar's mechanics. First, if something goes wrong on the job you can figure out what it is and what you need to do to remedy deal with the problem. Second, to maintain and modify your own guitar. Since I'm mechanically challenged, I don't really enjoy most of this stuff, but since I'm a player, when I want to try out a new change or move something, I don't want to wait. For me, mechanics has been a necessary evil that I've had to deal with.

Well, I have two 20-30 year old guitars and one new one. My Fessy is 2 years old and before that, I had a ZumSteel I got in 1980 that I played for 20 years. The Zum and the Fessy are modern design: you don't have to take them apart -- or at least remove cross shafts and stuff like that -- to add a new pull on an existing pedal or lever. Not so lucky with my push-pull and Sho-Bud.

Along with being a mechano-klutz, I have played pedal steel for 30 years. A certain amount of mechanical ability REALLY COMES IN HANDY for a steel player. I know very few players who have played gigs for decades and don't have HORROR STORIES about what fell off, slipped, broke or wouldn't work right. Some of them knew how to diagnose the problem and fix it right on the spot but others were just SCREWED.

If it happens on a new guitar with a modern all pull mechanism and you have a basic understanding of what moves when you press a pedal and activate a pull, you can figure it out. Older guitars have other problems, most notably:
Old parts (KL brackets, changer parts, etc.) can fail
The undercarriage doesn't always look like what we are accustomed to seeing. What moves when you pull a string is different.

I added three pedals and two knee levers to a push-pull, so I can figure it out. And it worked and played ok, but I ended up taking it to Mike Cass. Now it plays better and is more or less to factory set up specs. AND I learned by looking over his shoulder when he was setting it up. He rerodded the whole guitar and I watched him rebuild the setup. BUT, I really have to think carefully about mechanical stuff to understand how to time multiple changes or increase / decrease throw and how it changes the feel.

Understanding how your pedal steel raises and lowers strings and how to adjust throw and diagnose common problems is an important skill to possess -- even if you're a mechano-klutz.

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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S/D-12 6x6, 1984 Sho-Bud S/D-12 7x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps

Farris Currie · Post by **Farris Currie** » 24 Aug 2005 7:21 am

Very good stuff guys!!One problem i have faced several times with a old professional sho-bud is,taking it out of the case,and setting up.many times mostly strings 5 or 6 will be away to high. First thoughts,oh must have bumped the key!!well,what do i do,tune it down,then all seems fine,all at once,it drops 2frets!!!Growl!!!brass barrels or linkage,something was hanging at first.then question comes to mind,how to fix that so it won't happen again???
I;m bad about reaching under guitar and shaking the linkage around at first to make sure nothing is hanging. farris

Bob Hoffnar · Post by **Bob Hoffnar** » 24 Aug 2005 8:09 am

Many years ago a wise man named Billy Cooper told me as he was fixing one of my home made modifications:

"If you spent more time on top of the guitar instead of under it you would play better by now."

One of the most productive statements I ever took to heart.

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Bob
My Website

Tom Jordan · Post by **Tom Jordan** » 24 Aug 2005 8:36 am

...don't give me that ol' familiar whine and cuss and moan...understand your steel...

Wasn't that Johnny Cash/Bob Dillon?

Tom

Al Marcus · Post by **Al Marcus** » 24 Aug 2005 8:57 am

As Larry Bell said in his post. I feel the same way,. I don't want to be fixing a steel guitar, only when I have to. So we have to learn somthing about the underneath.

I'd rather have a guitar set up perfectly and in tune and just play the thing....al

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My Website..... www.cmedic.net/~almarcus/

Larry Bell · Post by **Larry Bell** » 24 Aug 2005 9:09 am

"If you spent more time on top of the guitar instead of under it you would play better by now."

Very true, but as my old friend Clifford Kirk told me while he was working on mine,

If you don't spend ANY time under it, the time will come when you're sorry you didn't.

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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S/D-12 6x6, 1984 Sho-Bud S/D-12 7x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps