No Slack on B Pedal (GFI Expo)

Larry Wayte · Post by **Larry Wayte** » 8 Mar 2018 9:53 am

I recently bought a used GFI Expo and am enjoying the upgrade from my Carter Starter. However, I'm struggling with one stubborn issue: my B pedal seems to have no slack on the 6th string (G3). I don't know much about adjusting pedal steels, so I've searched the earlier posts on pedal slack and read about adjusting the return springs. I've tried those adjustments but they don't help. Here's how I would describe the problem: when my foot just barely touches the B pedal, the 6th string immediately starts to raise with barely any pedal travel. Meanwhile, the 3rd string doesn't start raising until the pedal is about 1/2 way down. I didn't have that issue on the Carter Starter, and my other pedals on the GFI aren't having that issue. Are there some adjustments I can make to solve this problem? If needed, I'd be happy to set up that pedal and its linkages "from scratch" if that will get me to where there's some slack in the pedal before it engages and to where the 3rd and 6th strings will engage at roughly the same moment in pedal travel. Thanks for any help!

Jack Stoner · Post by **Jack Stoner** » 8 Mar 2018 10:05 am

Here is the link to the rodding chart. You can compare that with what you have. The return springs are not the problem. Its either the changer hole is changed or the hole in the puller finger that's been changed.

I'll take a look at my wife's Expo S-10 and see where they are.

http://www.gfimusicalproducts.com/docum ... html#E9rod

Larry Wayte · Post by **Larry Wayte** » 8 Mar 2018 10:29 am

Thanks for the reply! I should have mentioned that I already looked at that chart, and the pull rods seem to be connected to the correct hole numbers for both strings on both the changer and bell crank. That's the first thing I looked at.

I then tried the spring adjustment because it was mentioned once in an earlier post on this subject (having the 3rd and 6th string springs at different tensions), but it didn't help either. I've also tried adjusting the pedal height (rod length) in both directions, but that also didn't make any difference.

I've also tried unthreading the nylon tuning nut, detuning the string, and then retuning both, but that didn't work. That's why I think maybe I need to just pull that pedal and its linkages all apart and start from scratch (which I don't know how to do, but how hard could it be?), but maybe I'm over-reacting.... and maybe that wouldn't actually change anything (other than I'd learn about how this all works).

Tim Heidner · Post by **Tim Heidner** » 8 Mar 2018 10:33 am

Could the string thickness have an effect on this? Previous owner may have put a string on that's too thick.

Tucker Jackson · Post by **Tucker Jackson** » 8 Mar 2018 11:01 am

Do you feel good that the string gauge is correct on the 6th string? Was is it maybe set up for a plain string and you now have a wound on there?

Check the amount of slack at the nylon nut on the 6th string. You should be able to take your finger and pull the nut out, away from the changer, ever so slightly. Compare it to the other nuts and you'll see what I mean. You can also put the guitar in the case and grab that 6th string pull rod and see it will move a little, right and left, like the others. We're talking like 1/16" or so-- a very small, but noticeable amount of slack.

If the nut is slammed tight up against the changer... no good. There needs to be a tiny bit of slack there.

You already did the very first thing to attempt in this situation, and that's to check for 'overtuning,' i.e.,completely backing off the nut and then trying to retune it.

Since that didn't fix things, you might need more travel on the B pedal. I'm not familiar enough with GFI to know how this is handled, but many guitars have some kind of adjustable stop-point where the pedal hits. If so, turn the screw so that the pedal can travel slightly further. Then retune the nylon nut (you'll have to back off it to hit your target note -- creating the necessary slack in the pull-train in the process).

Larry Wayte · Post by **Larry Wayte** » 8 Mar 2018 11:15 am

Thanks, Tucker (and hello from Eugene, OR). I've wondered about the string gauge issue, but haven't explored that. I didn't change any strings since I bought the guitar just a few days ago. (It has a wound string on it now.) I'll look into that and your other suggestions later today. Thanks again. I know there's a fix for this, but just haven't found it yet...

Tucker Jackson · Post by **Tucker Jackson** » 8 Mar 2018 11:24 am

Ah, there it is.

A wound string requires more travel as compared to a plain of the same size.

The rodding chart from GFI almost certainly assumes a plain string, so there's your mismatch.

The reason a wound requires more travel is because thinnner strings require more movement than thicker ones to achieve the same change in pitch.

So why would, say, a wound 0.22 require way more travel than a plain if they were same (or even similar) gauge?

It's because the wound string is only .022 due to it's windings on the outer surface. Meanwhile, the only part that matters in terms of actual tension and travel is the super-thin plain wire core running down the middle of those windings. So it may be marked as 'wound .022' on the outside, but really, it tunes and plays more like an .011 or so. Much thinner than you might imagine, so a wound string requires the rodding to be set up to supply more travel than its plain counterpart of a similar gauge.

You can either put on a plain string, like a .020 or .022... or if, like me, you prefer the tuning stability of a wound 6th string, you can move the rod to the bellcrank hole that's furthest from the cross bar. You can also get a little more help by moving the rod to the hole in the changer's raise-finger that's closest to the axle. Those two changes will get you maximum travel on that string when you step on the B-pedal.

Maybe some GFI guys with wound 6th will chime in and tell us if was really necassary to go the 'full monty' on leverage. Really, you just want to the 6th and 3rd to start changing at the same time, or as close as possible. You might have to experiment with bellcrank holes to find the sweet spot.

Jack Stoner · Post by **Jack Stoner** » 8 Mar 2018 12:31 pm

We use George L's "Nashville Gauges" on my wife's S-10 Expo. Seems to be the same gauges as GFI must have used.
Plain .020 on 6th string.

Larry Wayte · Post by **Larry Wayte** » 8 Mar 2018 1:53 pm

Thanks so much for these suggestions! I'm not at home now, so can't check it, but it seems the string gauge is probably the issue. The question then becomes, should I change the string gauge or type, or change which hole in the crank the pull rod is connected to?. Is there an advantage to a plain 6th string (non-wound)? Different tone I imagine.... but does it break more often than wound? or harder to keep in tune (more likely to stretch)?

Jon Light · Post by **Jon Light** » 8 Mar 2018 2:35 pm

A plain 6th string is probably the string most prone to detuning due to 'cabinet drop' or other stresses. This is one of the bigger reasons some people switch to a wound 6. It takes a lot more pull-train movement on a wound 6 to get the same amount of pitch change as you get on an unwound string. Choice of hole is the first thing you can mess with to try to solve this (staying with the wound string). Many many people go with the unwound string and it does match up better with the 3rd string in terms of pedal movement. There are pros & cons for either choice.
Breakage is not an issue at all.

Brint Hannay · Post by **Brint Hannay** » 8 Mar 2018 2:59 pm

Larry Wayte wrote:Is there an advantage to a plain 6th string (non-wound)?

One potential advantage is if you want to lower the 6th string to F#. On a lot of steels the changer can't lower far enough to get the whole step with a wound string.

Tucker Jackson · Post by **Tucker Jackson** » 8 Mar 2018 3:09 pm

What Jon and Brint said.

The easiest thing to do would be to put a plain .020 or .022 on there and see if you like it. I think a large majority of players prefer a plain string. If you have sensitive ears, though, you might really prefer the more stable tuning of a wound.

To summarize what the other guys have already said, I think about a wound 6th like this:

PROS:

* Stays in tune MUCH better than a plain.
A plain 6th string is notorious for drifting all over the place in a way that no other string on the guitar will, but a wound stays put. This is the main selling point.

* Experiences less cabinet drop (or cabinet raise, when using the E-lower lever). So, again, it can potentially be more in tune in certain chord positions, and noticeably so; there are less compromises needed when tuning it up because it works well in several chord positions.

CONS:
* May not blend as well with the other treble strings, which are all plain. How it sounds is subjective.

* I have experienced more breakage with a wound than a plain, but it's quite rare.

* If you lower the 6th string to F# (an extremely common change), the throw on the knee lever becomes quite long. It might be annoying to some. And some older steel's changers can't even get all the way to the target note if using a wound string. Most, however, can do so.

Larry Wayte · Post by **Larry Wayte** » 8 Mar 2018 7:46 pm

Thanks so much for these suggestions. I decided to stick with the wound string (mostly because that's what's there) and to move to a different hole on the crank further from the crossrod. I didn't go all the way to the last hole but instead moved away hole by hole until I liked the feel, and it completely worked to solve this problem! I'm actually glad I had to deal with this because now I have some experience moving things around and feel more confident knowing what does what. So, problem solved! Thanks again.