Does the pedal steel guitar world need more builders?

Nick Anderson · Post by **Nick Anderson** » 2 Mar 2018 4:19 pm

That is the question.I've been away from the forum for 5 years.

It seems as if there aren't as many builders as there one was.

Time for opportunity or no money in it?

Thx
Nick Anderson

Bill C. Buntin · Post by **Bill C. Buntin** » 2 Mar 2018 4:28 pm

Nick I've thought about this, kind of in reverse. Wondering if there aren't too many builders.

I think because machining is so accurate nowadays, everyone in the business is making good products. Or in my opinion all of the guitars I've demoed in recent years have been excellent guitars.

Add the Classics into the market, and I think there is an abundance of good equipment and maybe the market is saturated? Just a guess.

If money was no object I would have one of each.

Two guitars I wanted, are not made any longer. Franklin and Zum. I am sure I can buy used and maybe I will some day.

I want a new MSA.

I want an Infinity.

I want a Rains.

I want......all of them.

Jack Hanson · Post by **Jack Hanson** » 2 Mar 2018 5:21 pm

Not trying to be overly pessimistic, merely realistic.

Judging from the demographics of the majority of pedal steel players in 2018, the market will undoubtedly be flooded with used pedal steels and peripheral equipment within the next decade or so, as families and heirs settle estates.

Just look at the photos of the folks who attend the shows, meetings, and conventions. Most have white hair, and most of the rest are hiding something.

Fact the facts, most of us are on the back nine of our lives. There just aren't that many young players willing to put in the time on an expensive toy that cannot be operated with only two thumbs.

Doubt that any of the existing (surviving) builders are into it for the huge profit margins; most likely for most of them it's a labor of love, and they're just barely hanging in there.

I hope I'm sorely mistaken, and please set me straight if that's the case.

Nick Anderson · Post by **Nick Anderson** » 2 Mar 2018 5:32 pm

One thing I noticed is that it seems harder to find used parts, like on ebay.

Would it be better to be a full on parts maker, and only make a few steels a year?

Andy DePaule · Post by **Andy DePaule** » 2 Mar 2018 6:25 pm

Jack Hanson wrote:Face the facts, most of us are on the back nine of our lives

WoW Jack, I'm only seventy and my hair is still Brown, so at least thirty years left if the management has been hearing my conversations with him?

Anyway, when I hit 95 I plan to order an extra large coffin so I can take the best steels and amps with me.

Don't know how to play harp!

J R Rose · Post by **J R Rose** » 2 Mar 2018 7:58 pm

You still have hair Andy? Wow!! Just kidding you. J.R.

Nathan French · Post by **Nathan French** » 2 Mar 2018 8:00 pm

Another way to look at this is it's hard to get a good steel for less than $1k. If a new builder could somehow make something competitive for much less there might be room in the market.

It may also drive better demographics. Lap steels and resonator guitars don't have the same aging demographic issue as pedal steel. Cost of entry has something to do with that. I bought a resonator guitar on a whim and built a few lap steel instruments, but it took a lot of hemming and hawing to decide to get a pedal steel.

Andy DePaule · Post by **Andy DePaule** » 2 Mar 2018 8:19 pm

Hi Nathan,
So maybe the resophonic guitars and lap steels are the gateway drug to get em hookerd.... Not too long before they will need a PSG.
After a while that one PSG is just not a strong enough fix?

So many good builders now and the steels being made are for the most part very fine.
I wish them all the best of sales to keep them busy for all their working years.
True though that lots of steel companies, past and present need to do other things (Like aircraft parts) just to cover their expenses.
They may seem expensive until you really know what all goes into making the steel that sits in front of you.

Hi J R Rose
To your question; "You still have hair Andy? Wow!! Just kidding you. J.R"...
Well yes I got hair still but there is a shiny moon spot in the center and that old hairline is moving away from the front yard bit by bit!

Carl Heatley · Post by **Carl Heatley** » 2 Mar 2018 8:55 pm

Nathan French wrote:Another way to look at this is it's hard to get a good steel for less than $1k. If a new builder could somehow make something competitive for much less there might be room in the market.

I,m working on it...Not all parts are new...Some parts I make myself but at $1075 shipped you get a decent custom made SD or S10 guitar and only around 47 lbs in the case!

Jerry Overstreet · Post by **Jerry Overstreet** » 2 Mar 2018 8:55 pm

I think I counted about 20 active builders now, give or take. Frankly, I'm surprised they can all stay in business in such a tiny market. I think it speaks to their love for the instrument and the industry. We're fortunate to have so many choices.

Fred Treece · Post by **Fred Treece** » 2 Mar 2018 9:56 pm

Doug Earnest had to stop taking new orders for his Stage One guitars last year in order to catch up on existing backlog. I noticed Frank Carter at Infinity is doing the same thing; I donâ€™t know if it is for the same reason. Sierra has just geared up for taking new orders for some amazing looking instruments. Demand must still be there.

I believe the current crop of new steels is being sold to people who have the money, and that is the white-haired community generally speaking. Younger players are indeed going to be in for some sweet deals on very high quality used gear in the not too distant future.

Tony Prior · Post by **Tony Prior** » 3 Mar 2018 1:24 am

It's a good valid question. I suspect there will always be room for another builder, but it may not make that person "rich" as all get go.

It seems more builders are retiring due to "it's time" .

The bigger problem would be why do we want to acquire another NEW Steel for $ X thousands when we already own 2 or 3 of one of them other brands that are no longer being made and are in HIGH demand on the used market.

My issue with many of the NEW guitars was the wait period. I'm not a waiting person by nature. I could never send someone a few thousand bucks and then wait 6 or 12 months for a product to be delivered.

Maybe two years ago I had about 4 grand burning a hole in my pocket, I reached out to one of the NEW builders and was told 6 to 8 months wait.

I now own two USED brand X guitars that I doubt I will ever part with. Had I been able to acquire the NEW steel in a much quicker purchase time I never would have bought the used Steels. Now I have zero interest in any NEW Steels !

Not sure if thats good or bad !

Dick Sexton · Post by **Dick Sexton** » 3 Mar 2018 4:59 am

No...

But that will not stop them from trying. There will always be someone who thinks they can do it better, cheaper, prettier, lighter, with this improvement or that improvement.

Franklin, Zum, Emmons, Sho-bud with a few others set the bar. Pretty high for the material and technology of the time.

MSA and a very few others are raising that bar. It will be raised higher.

Will others start building? It is human nature to try to make something better. They may even do that, we will have to wait and see.

Just my opinion...

Steve Spitz · Post by **Steve Spitz** » 3 Mar 2018 5:57 am

Good question Nick.

pure speculation on my part, but here are my observations;

Its a very small market. There are a ton of great used instruments on the market, and this number is growing as the players are aging. This creates some great deals, and that creates market competition for new builders.

considering the moderate volume of new sales and the cost and labor involved, few are getting rich in this business. A segment of the potential market is likely older with less funds available for a new purchase. I think Del Mullen said "its a rich mans game, problem is there are no rich men in the game"

At the same time, there are builders who seem to have all the business they can handle. like any product, build a better mousetrap, and you will have a demand.

On the other hand,some builders are getting near retirement age. That alone may create an opportunity for someone looking to enter the market.

Again, all speculation on my part.

Jerry Dragon · Post by **Jerry Dragon** » 3 Mar 2018 6:16 am

I am 66 and always wanted a steel but the entry cost was so high I couldn't justify it. Now I have the money and the time to invest again so I am going to buy one. As far as my observations of younger folk coming into the fold; I am not a country player but love the sound of the pedal steel. I feel there is not enough representation of the instrument in other genres of music, or I just haven't heard it. The instrument is mostly heard in country music and even in todays modern county it has lost ground and not heard as often. Maybe because of less qualified players which I doubt? But if the instrument could make inroads in other genres it would draw more fans? If the entry price came down with that maybe the instrument would fair better? Lots of ifs. I have this audio image in my head of big band space jazz fusion with PSG on lead.

Al Evans · Post by **Al Evans** » 3 Mar 2018 6:29 am

I'm 72 and bought my first pedal steel all of two months ago. I did it because it was relatively inexpensive and I realized I could finally afford the money and time to learn to play it.

I first wanted a pedal steel when I was about 25, with a brand new baby, a one-man business that occupied about 28 hours a day, and a life to try to make happen.

So, it had to wait until now. And now, I'm having way too much fun learning to play it.

--Al Evans

Jeffrey McFadden · Post by **Jeffrey McFadden** » 3 Mar 2018 7:28 am

Jerry Dragon wrote:I am 66 and always wanted a steel but the entry cost was so high I couldn't justify it. Now I have the money and the time to invest again so I am going to buy one. As far as my observations of younger folk coming into the fold; I am not a country player but love the sound of the pedal steel. I feel there is not enough representation of the instrument in other genres of music, or I just haven't heard it. The instrument is mostly heard in country music and even in todays modern county it has lost ground and not heard as often. Maybe because of less qualified players which I doubt? But if the instrument could make inroads in other genres it would draw more fans? If the entry price came down with that maybe the instrument would fair better? Lots of ifs. I have this audio image in my head of big band space jazz fusion with PSG on lead.

Al Evans wrote:I'm 72 and bought my first pedal steel all of two months ago. I did it because it was relatively inexpensive and I realized I could finally afford the money and time to learn to play it.

I first wanted a pedal steel when I was about 25, with a brand new baby, a one-man business that occupied about 28 hours a day, and a life to try to make happen.

So, it had to wait until now. And now, I'm having way too much fun learning to play it.

--Al Evans

I'm 70, and less than two weeks into ownership of my first pedal steel. I think we three show that the white haired, back nine class of new players is a significant chunk of the market.

That said, I was able to buy a well made used PSG (Carter D-10 8x5) in excellent condition, even to include the owner's manual, for a reasonable amount of money. So - small market, labor intensive product, lots of good used on the market... I'd bet this is a labor of love for almost everyone in the industry, with a lot of them just scratching by.

Jerry Dragon · Post by **Jerry Dragon** » 3 Mar 2018 7:40 am

I had a Marlen D10 about ten years ago I bought off the site. I just didn't have the time to tackle it. I was to busy working with a family, singing and playing electric lead and other instruments in bands. Now I have the time and the extra money to really start. Plus, I am a machinist and looking for something to do when I retire which is soon. Maybe I will be another parts maker, who knows?
When I was younger and struggling if the entry price had been lower for a decent instrument things might have been different.

Rich Upright · Post by **Rich Upright** » 3 Mar 2018 8:46 am

"Fact the facts, most of us are on the back nine of our lives. There just aren't that many young players willing to put in the time on an expensive toy that cannot be operated with only two thumbs."

This hits the nail right on the head. Also, considering the garbage coming from Nashville nowadays in the guise of "country music", I am surprised that there are as many builders as there are.

Larry Carlson · Post by **Larry Carlson** » 3 Mar 2018 9:17 am

I'm 74. I Have white hair and a white beard.
I am a handsome old dude.

I play lap steel. Started a couple of years ago.
I wanted to learn pedal steel.
I do not play pedal steel guitar because I can't afford a hobby that costs more than my truck is worth.
I am also not a mechanical genius so I couldn't maintain or keep a pedal steel running smoothly.
There are no facilities or shops here that even sell lap or pedal steels let alone service them.
A simple lap steel I can handle.

Correction: I do not play lap steel. I play with a lap steel.

Jeffrey McFadden · Post by **Jeffrey McFadden** » 3 Mar 2018 9:25 am

Rich Upright wrote:"Fact the facts, most of us are on the back nine of our lives. There just aren't that many young players willing to put in the time on an expensive toy that cannot be operated with only two thumbs."

This hits the nail right on the head. Also, considering the garbage coming from Nashville nowadays in the guise of "country music", I am surprised that there are as many builders as there are.

It is my opinion that the tendency to limit the pedal steel to just country music is the worst thing that could possibly be done to the pedal steel manufacturers of the world. Limiting it to just traditional country is even worse. Talk about your dead end - they ain't making no more of that.

I don't play traditional pedal steel music, I play music and see pedal steel as an incredibly flexible, capable instrument to give the guitar player, especially one with arthritic hands, the ability to express whatever musical feeling one has in whatever genre one chooses.

I will grant you that much of traditional country couldn't have been what it was without the distinctive sound the early greats created, but I don't think that automatically limits the instrument's capabilities.

Jerry Overstreet · Post by **Jerry Overstreet** » 3 Mar 2018 9:39 am

My thoughts exactly Jeffrey. I've always thought so. I been preaching this just about ever since I began playing.

The oldsters are always lamenting the lack of younger players, but they only want to ordain those that follow the traditional path.

Truth is, there are a few youngsters who revere the old ways, but the majority of them are not going to want to go back and learn The Other Woman or a Way to Survive.

We have to give them rein to embrace the music of their generation and genre.

I think there are many out there pursuing other paths regardless of age and many who don't care what this group here has to say about it.

I believe there will always be a market for pedal steel guitars. It's just too neat and compelling a sound to ever be lost. With younger people like Mike Mantey and maybe Tim Rudolph to carry on the building tradition of their families, I'd say the industry is strong and in good hands.

Nick Anderson · Post by **Nick Anderson** » 3 Mar 2018 11:16 am

Thanks for everyone's input!

Jeffrey McFadden · Post by **Jeffrey McFadden** » 3 Mar 2018 11:54 am

Larry Carlson wrote:I'm 74. I Have white hair and a white beard.
I am a handsome old dude.
I play lap steel. Started a couple of years ago.
I wanted to learn pedal steel.
I do not play pedal steel guitar because I can't afford a hobby that costs more than my truck is worth.
I am also not a mechanical genius so I couldn't maintain or keep a pedal steel running smoothly.
There are no facilities or shops here that even sell lap or pedal steels let alone service them.
A simple lap steel I can handle.

Correction: I do not play lap steel. I play with a lap steel.

Your truck isn't worth $2500?

I just moved from your status to Pedal Steel Beginner status two weeks ago. You can buy a pretty darn good pedal steel from somebody here for 2500 bucks more days than not. Probably cost another hundred to ship. They are complex, yes, but they're amazingly rugged too, and don't take much maintenance. My Carter owner's manual recommends a little 3 in 1 oil from time to time.

I got tired of waving my arm around and overshooting or undershooting the fret I wanted. With a pedal steel, using exactly two pedals, I can play chords 1-2-2m-3m-4-5-6m (for instance, C-D-Dm-Em-F-G-Am) without moving my bar more than two frets.

I can still do any form of the 1-[2]-6m-4-5 fret moves too, same guitar, with only the minor requiring a pedal. (G-[A]-Em-C-D)

There are more chords available within two frets than that - I'm a rank rookie and I've learned those already.

Doggone thing weighs a ton, though. Only drawback. Oh, that and the $2500.00, but it was still a great value.

Larry Carlson · Post by **Larry Carlson** » 3 Mar 2018 1:28 pm

Jeffrey McFadden wrote: Your truck isn't worth $2500?

Well, I'm sorry but no it isn't.
If that disqualifies me from being a member of some 'magic club' I can't do anything about it.

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Does the pedal steel guitar world need more builders?

Does the pedal steel guitar world need more builders?

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