Triads, chords, voicings, inversions

bob grossman · Post by **bob grossman** » 14 Jun 2005 5:58 am

Maybe some of you who are versed in musical knowledge will comment. John Steele? Ed Packard? Jeff Lampert?

If I'm correct, a major/minor/aug. three-note "chord" is technically a "triad" and it has three "voicings"; ie, CEG, EGC, GCE, etc. CGE would be an "inversion", the notes are out of the natural sequence. We play lots of inversions.

A chord has four or more notes, some may be implied, such as a 13th being faked by four notes, etc. Voicings and inversions apply here also.

So what, huh?

Burton Lee · Post by **Burton Lee** » 14 Jun 2005 7:37 am

Inversion and Voicing are similar but distinct.

An inversion of C major would be any C major chord with E or G in the bass. The C in the bass would be root position.

Scrambling up the notes above the bass is a voicing. Open or closed voicings do not change the inversion. EGCE, ECGC, EGC are all 1st inversion C major chords.

At least, that's how I remember it from school.

Burton

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 14 Jun 2005 10:31 am

Is there a term that encompasses the root position and both inversions? I always thought of the root position as one of 3 inversions, but I have since been corrected.

"With just the two basic pedals and the F lever, a steel guitarist can slide between any of the three {what?} of a major chord."

Jim Cohen · Post by **Jim Cohen** » 14 Jun 2005 10:33 am

I think the word is "voicings"

Jon Light · Post by **Jon Light** » 14 Jun 2005 11:54 am

At the risk of being called stubborn (or ignorant) I will continue to call those the three inversions of a triad.

Bruce Clarke · Post by **Bruce Clarke** » 14 Jun 2005 12:35 pm

Jon, a triad can only have two inversions, so I'd have to agree with you, the word is ignorant. Ignorance can be cured though.

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 14 Jun 2005 12:51 pm

I can play all three ignorants of a major chord?

Jon Light · Post by **Jon Light** » 14 Jun 2005 1:08 pm

Good one, Bobby, and in deference to you, I will show restraint and just say way to go, Bruce.

Charlie McDonald · Post by **Charlie McDonald** » 14 Jun 2005 1:12 pm

"With just the two basic pedals and the F lever, a steel guitarist can slide between any of the three {what?} of a major chord."
Inversions.
I think inversions and voicings are interchangeable.
1st inversion, E bass (in C).
2nd inversion, G bass.

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 14 Jun 2005 1:17 pm

So with the C in the bass, it's the "0th inversion"? Doesn't sound right.

Jeff Lampert · Post by **Jeff Lampert** » 14 Jun 2005 1:35 pm

So with the C in the bass, it's the "0th inversion"? Doesn't sound right.

When the tonic is in the bass, it is called the root position.

------------------
Jeff's Jazz

Jim Cohen · Post by **Jim Cohen** » 14 Jun 2005 2:47 pm

I'll have another tonic, please (hic!)

Larry Bell · Post by **Larry Bell** » 14 Jun 2005 3:07 pm

Inversions are voicings, but voicings are not (necessarily) inversions. For example, you could play 10, 6, and 4 on E9 to get the 5th, 3rd, and tonic notes of a major triad. This is not any of the inversions because the notes are not in the prescribed order (135, 351, 513), but it IS a major triad (three notes of the proper scale tones).

And, yes, it's kinda like the way computer guys count -- starting with 0. The zero-th inversion is called 'root position' as Jeff pointed out. A major triad has one root position and two inversions. A major 7th chord (tetrad) has a root position and three inversions. # of inversions = # of different notes in the chord - 1.

More info: http://www.rocknroll.force9.co.uk/music/theory/inversion.html

and I'll take another GIN to go along with Cohen's TONIC.

------------------
Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps

[This message was edited by Larry Bell on 14 June 2005 at 04:09 PM.]

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 14 Jun 2005 3:25 pm

Okay, let me try again: consider the unique set { 135, 351, 513 }. Is there a word that applies to these 3 voicings and no other?

I used to call all three of them "inversions", but now I'm told that 135 is not an inversion but a "root position". There's an obvious relationship between those three voicings. They are the three {what}s of a major triad?

Dave Grafe · Post by **Dave Grafe** » 14 Jun 2005 3:49 pm

Now I've been wrong before, but I'm gonna step up and stand next to b0b on this one.

Right or wrong, my college music theory teacher would say that the root position is one of three possible inversions of a triad.

Pass the target, please.[This message was edited by Dave Grafe on 14 June 2005 at 04:53 PM.]

Dan Beller-McKenna · Post by **Dan Beller-McKenna** » 14 Jun 2005 4:08 pm

With just the two basic pedals and the F lever, a steel guitarist can slide between any of the three {what?} of a major chord."

hmmmmm....

with the third of the chord in the bass it's called a first inversion chord: so how can the root in the bass be an "inversion." I would encourage my students to write "any of the three versions of the major triad," since inversions must relate to a basic version. But that's just my zwei Pfennig.

Dan

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 14 Jun 2005 4:16 pm

Three versions - very good! I can live with that. There are three versions of the major triad: the root position, the first inversion and the second inversion.

Whew! It's like pulling teeth to get an answer around here.

Larry Hicks · Post by **Larry Hicks** » 14 Jun 2005 4:28 pm

Hi Dave,
Guess we'll compare college theory teachers.
Mine said that there is Root Position, First Inversion, and Second Inversion only (like Charlie Mc said above).

Dan Beller-McKenna · Post by **Dan Beller-McKenna** » 14 Jun 2005 4:38 pm

but wait ....

I should have said "three versions of the major chord, since (oh man, this is getting nerdy!!) techincally a triad is "a chord consisting of three pitches, the adjacent pitches being separated by a third" (New Harvard Dictionary of Music, 1986); in the inversions there are other intervals, hence not triads.

Man! My brain hurts. Skip the dang tonic: I'm heading straight for the gin!

Dan
[This message was edited by Dan Beller-McKenna on 14 June 2005 at 05:38 PM.]

James Sission · Post by **James Sission** » 14 Jun 2005 4:39 pm

My teachers taught me root, 1st and 2nd inversion as well.

Root position: The root of the chord is the lowest note.

1st inversion: The 3rd of the chord is the lowest note.

2nd inversion: The 5th of the chord is the lowest note

Larry Bell · Post by **Larry Bell** » 14 Jun 2005 6:48 pm

Are you guys gonna PLAY THAT THANG or just TALK ABOUT IT???????

Don't matter WHAT you call it, it'll still sounds the same.

------------------
Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps

[This message was edited by Larry Bell on 14 June 2005 at 07:48 PM.]

ed packard · Post by **ed packard** » 14 Jun 2005 7:06 pm

I quote the "Concise Oxford Dictionary of Music";

INVERSION ... "Literally, the turning upside downof a chord, interval, counterpoint, theme or, pedal point. A chord is said to be inverted when not in the root position.

CHORD ... "Any simultaneous combination of notes, but usually not fewer than 3".

VOICING ... no definition given.

VOICE ... "Separate strand of music in counterpoint or harmony, also known a "part", or more confusingly "voice part"".

Someone have the Harvard Dictionary of Music? Or other?

Arnold Schoenberg, in his Theory of Harmony teaches ""to invert" means to put the low tone of a chord or interval an octave higher [or] a high tone an octave lower while the other chord tones remain in their places". he illustrates:

with C,E,G, move the C up an octave (the third is now "in the bass")and the chord is in the "first inversion" also known as the "six-three" chord.

Now move the E up an octave (the fifth is now "in the bass"), and the result is the "second inversion" also known as the "six-four" chord.

Dan Beller-McKenna · Post by **Dan Beller-McKenna** » 14 Jun 2005 8:03 pm

Schoenberg and pedal steel ... I never thought I'd see the day.

I think Larry's got a good point: I'm gonna shuddup and go play my steel (where the world makes sense).

On a more serious note: I hope all our Northwest friends are safe and sound re tonights earthquake.

Dan

Jeff Lampert · Post by **Jeff Lampert** » 14 Jun 2005 8:54 pm

consider the unique set { 135, 351, 513 }. Is there a word that applies to these 3 voicings and no other?

There is no one word that I am aware of that applies to just those three. Those three combinations of notes are three possible voicings of a major triad. HOWEVER, possible voicings of a major triad are certainly not limited to those three. As Larry pointed out, you could also have 153, 315, and 531. Both 135 and 153 are root position triads. Both 351 and 315 are first inversion triads. Both 513 and 531 are second inversion triads.

------------------
Jeff's Jazz
[This message was edited by Jeff Lampert on 14 June 2005 at 09:56 PM.]

Dave Grafe · Post by **Dave Grafe** » 15 Jun 2005 12:19 am

Thank you kindly, gentlemen, I'll accept your lore, there's more of you than there are of me and I have no doubt whatsoever that every one of you has a better memory than mine.