Acceptable" cabinet drop.

Roger Rettig · Post by **Roger Rettig** » 7 Mar 2003 2:32 am

I remember watching Andre Segovia give a concert - before he played one particular piece he re-tuned his guitar, indicating that the change was necessary as he'd be playing principally between the fifth and tenth frets. He further indicated that there was no such thing as a guitar that played in-tune all over the fingerboard - apparently it's the law of physics, although I don't pretend to understand it.

Now Andre, rest his soul, had notably sensitive ears (he wouldn't play until a/c units were switched off), but I'd be surprised if the PSG wasn't subject to the same basic principals of physics - we can get them in tune at fret-zero, but they'll go awry somewhere up the neck - what price 'cabinet-drop' then?

Throw out the digital tuners (ignoring the fact that I've just bought a DTR-1

), and some of the problem will evaporate for some people. Anyway, even the Great Ones can be a bit 'off' - Buddy's penultimate note on 'Once upon a Time In The West' is a case in point, but who'd argue that it remains one of the most beautifully-played steel guitar recordings any of us have heard...

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Roger Rettig

Larry Bell · Post by **Larry Bell** » 7 Mar 2003 7:26 am

Excellent point, Roger
We're dealing with more variables than can be controlled at one time. Some seem to cope well and others wail and gnash their teeth throughout their steel playing career over a couple of cents on their tuners. Jerry Fessenden told me one time that he was discussing cabinet drop with Paul Franklin and Paul said he'd never heard a guitar that sounded good that didn't have some detuning -- whether cabinet, axle, whatever. I thought that was strange, but I have played a few that had near zero drop and none of them sounded 'alive'. May be something to it.

Perhaps it's a necessary evil -- or perhaps everyone will resort to a mechanical device like the Emmons Counterforce to 'undo' it. BTW, all the LeGrande III's I've heard with the counterforce compensator have sounded good to my ears, so maybe that's a way to get around the issue. I just wish they'd resume making 12-string guitars so I could find out.

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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 2000 Fessenden S-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps

C Dixon · Post by **C Dixon** » 7 Mar 2003 9:36 am

Larry,

ALL your points are well received.

Having been in design and developement most of my life, I can equate with everything you said.

One of the things that MUST be strived for in solving "known" problems, in any piece of equipment, is to recognize where variables are and where problems can be cured. It is here that I have a "peave" with builders concerning the latter, ie, "cabinet drop".

Sure, temperature changes, strings, bar pressure, specific frets, etc, etc. ALL play a part in how well or how badly a given guitar is in tune (or out of tune).

BUT in order for those to be as minimal as possible, it is always best IF known problems do NOT enter the equation. Because it is here where the end result does justify the means.

IN other words, everything else being equal, a guitar with Zero cabinet drop is always better (IMO) than one with cabinet drop. There are some things we cannot help. Those we must live with. But we do NOT half to exacerbate those anomalies with things we CAN correct.

Cabinet drop IS one of the things that can and SHOULD have been corrected long ago. The SAME thing can be said about the tops of strings not being level at the nut rollers. Simply NO excuse for this from where I sit.

carl

Kevin Hatton · Post by **Kevin Hatton** » 7 Mar 2003 10:14 am

I agree Carl. The solutions are there. Some builders apparently don't care.

Pete Burak · Post by **Pete Burak** » 7 Mar 2003 11:56 am

FWIW, due to my vocal range, pretty much every song played in G, I do in F. Every song in C, I do in Bb. And I do it on the first fret. I'm talking about my solo steel gig where most of my fingerpicking positions occur on strings 12-6.
Needless to say, I play alot of stuff on the first fret on the wound strings.
I also play on fret zero with the bar right over the nut applying some vibrato.
I have no problem with unlevel strings at the first fret because my Sierra has guaged rollers matching the string guages.
I don't know when they started doing it that way but mine is a '98 Session Series.
Concerning cabinet drop/raise.
I don't know what to tell ya.
You can adjust your Counter-Force all day long, but as soon as you turn your tuner off, all bets are off.
I had a field day in the Emmons room one year with Jim Aycoth when I brought my tuner in.
I asked to see how the E string doesn't move when you press the pedals.
Every time he'd adjust/demo the CF, I'd run my finger up and down the string, and it'd go way flat. Then he'd get a look on his face, and look under the steel... then I'd blow on the string and came back way sharp.
Fun Stuff!
So, I think what the builders know, that the players refuse to acknowledge, is that even if you build a cabinet that doesn't drop/raise, the players are still at the mercy of string dynamics, and they'll blame their out of tuneness on the steel builder anyway... so what's the use... especially when 99% of the players love the product as is!
[This message was edited by Pete Burak on 07 March 2003 at 11:59 AM.]

Bill Hankey · Post by **Bill Hankey** » 7 Mar 2003 2:15 pm

With the abundance of knowledgeable steel guitarists converging on the subject of cabinet drop, there is little that one could add, that hasn't been thought out in detail.

I can only insist that attention be focused on cabinet warping, and changer cross shaft shifting off dead center, under the stress of the string pulls.

Bill H.

Fred Rushing · Post by **Fred Rushing** » 7 Mar 2003 6:48 pm

Gentlemen The more you play the less cabinet drop you will HEAR. Play more talk less. Fred

Bill Hankey · Post by **Bill Hankey** » 8 Mar 2003 3:42 am

A compensator to bring the 6th string back to pitch, when applying the (A) pedal, or (F) lever will correct at least 50% of the detuning strife found in most steel guitars. Through experimentation, I have a clear understanding of what is taking place in the dilemma. As a matter of fact, I have taken steps to reverse the adverse reaction that occurs when pedals, and knee levers are actuated. The structural imbalances are at fault, and modifications are in order.

Bill H.

Pete Burak · Post by **Pete Burak** » 8 Mar 2003 9:06 am

I'll say it again Bill, that A+F position is reduntant.
I can see keeping it if it didn't cause a tuning dilema, but a redundant change that causes a tuning hassle?...
buh-bye!

I'd rather use a bar slant!

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 8 Mar 2003 11:37 am

Pete Burak wrote: <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>I don't see the A+F position as anyting more than "more of the same" in a different position, and am eliminating it from my steels in favor of something new and robust.
So there's one problem eliminated!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Them's fightin' words, Pete!

In all seriousness, I see the F lever as the most essential lever on the E9th tuning. If I could have only one lever, that would be it. As a matter of fact, I have a Sho-Bud Maverick with 2+1, and the 1 is an F lever.

Having only two positions for the major triad is as unacceptable to me as cabinet drop is to Carl Dixon.

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<img align=right src="http://b0b.com/b0b.gif" width="64" height="64">Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs
Sierra Session 12 (E9), Williams 400X (Emaj9, D6), Sierra Olympic 12 (C6add9), Sierra Laptop 8 (D13), Fender Stringmaster (E13, A6),
Roland Handsonic, Line 6 Variax

C Dixon · Post by **C Dixon** » 8 Mar 2003 11:59 am

I simply must ditto b0b's post on this one.

Before we had the F lever, I used to think that the 2nd inversion of a major chord was missing. We had the first and the 3rd from the on set of Bud Isaacs incredible action. But we were missing the 2nd.

When Lloyd Green came up with it, I was soo pleased. And there is NO way I would ever give up the F lever.

Only one other change is as necessary in my book and that is the 3rd inversion of a minor chord. Yes, we have it with pedals B and C. But it requires one to move off of A and B to get to B and C. I always felt there should be a better way.

When BE came up with the lowering of string 6 a whole tone AND splitting with the B pedal, I said to myself, "That's it"

And I still believe in it. In a word:

1. Three inversions of a major chord (on the same strings)

and,

2. Three inversions of a minor chord on the same strings).

make the steel guitar enter a domain where other instruments have always been. Now, when the day comes we can get any inversion of any chord, we will be complete.

And it will come. I guarantee it. It is just a matter of time. Music calls for it. Ears here it and players WILL do it; IMO.

God bless you all,

carl

Larry Bell · Post by **Larry Bell** » 8 Mar 2003 4:23 pm

I'd have to be limited to ONE KNEE LEVER to give up the F lever -- the Eb lever is the only other one I find more valuable.

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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 2000 Fessenden S-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps

Bill Hankey · Post by **Bill Hankey** » 9 Mar 2003 3:04 am

Carl D.,

You've mentioned having to get off the A & B pedals, and going to the B&C pedals, for the minor inversion. I have a knee lever that for many years, raises my 4th & 8th strings independently. I'd be lost without its convenience, and advantages. There is no need to move off the A & B pedals, once the knee lever is in place. The combined use of the knee lever with the A & B pedals, will relieve the player of the awkward foot move, making possible a whole new world of musical expression, not heard by dancing on the B&C pedals. Using just the (B) pedal with the 4 & 8 raises will provide a 5 chord in the inversion "tree." I'm not assuming that you are not aware of these possibilities, but others may like to experiment with the change, if it hasn't been tried. The short pedals that I have developed could be used also, to resolve having to move off the A & B pedals. This would enable the player to exact greased lightning changes heard in a number of uptempo instrumentals. The knee lever that would actuate the 4th & 8th strings, has many advantages, with musical expression, over the B & C foot change. Mike Smith's fast B/C licks, and T. Brumley's "Apple Jack" are good examples where easily reachable B/C pedals come into play.

Bill H.

[This message was edited by Bill Hankey on 09 March 2003 at 10:18 AM.]

David L. Donald · Post by **David L. Donald** » 9 Mar 2003 4:13 am

I haven't seen anything about the differences in string widths, heights, string winding differences and tensions;
in relation to open tuned PSG and then with bar placement with angle and preasure considerations. Some of this I suspect is an issue with 2 good players needing to retune a PSG each time they switch players.

I think the differences in bar presures for each string width and type must have an overall effect on individual intonations, and the great players have found their groove so to speak.
Several small mistunings that balance as a whole. Individual to each PSG and it's copedant, string brand AND player.

Not unLike the USA NTSC television standard, un-affectionately known to editors as "Never Twice The Same Color"; the good ones find a balance by feel.[This message was edited by David L. Donald on 09 March 2003 at 04:32 AM.]

C Dixon · Post by **C Dixon** » 9 Mar 2003 7:20 am

Bill,

You are 100% correct. With this one caveat. If you do away with Pedal C, and use only the knee lever raising 4 (and possibly

, you create a problem. Most players cannot manipulate the pedals AND a knee lever fast enough to emulate the old Jimmy Day lick using the B and C pedals. This is similar lick like JD used on Charlie Walker's hit, "Pick Me up on Your Way Down".

So, the best of both worlds is to have BOTH the C pedal And the knee lever. Which is what I do.

Praise Jesus.

Donald,

Very respectfully and with much sincerity, I must state to you and to many others, that all of the extraneous "causes" of intonation problems are FAR and away overshadowed by "cabinet drop".

In other words, EVERY thing else being equal, such as bar pressure and angle, string gauges, etc etc, cannot come even close to the problems related to cabinet drop.

In a word, IF one has Zero cabinet drop, it makes all the other mentioned anomalies appear to be slim to none in comparison.

carl

rhcarden · Post by **rhcarden** » 9 Mar 2003 9:37 am

The first pedal steels were made by adding legs and pedals to a lap guitar. You would think that after all these years some builder would change that concept and design something that works. Everyone knows that if you add weight to the middle of two by four that is supported only at the ends, it will bend. The same goes for the steel rod in the tuner and cross-bars. We've known for years that when you lower a string it gets a new bite on the finger radius and will return sharp until it has been raise. Has this problem been fixed? No, we just add a compensater (Band-aid). I'm with Carl, 0 cabinet drop is exceptable!

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Bob Carden 66 Emmons P/P 8/9
BMI 13 string 7/7

David L. Donald · Post by **David L. Donald** » 9 Mar 2003 9:48 am

C Dixon point taken on cabinet drop. But how does this explain 2 players on the same steel needing to retune just to be sounding good?
Could it be the individual choice of lever pedal combinations creates a different form of cabinet drop for each player. Still curious. I'm here to learn

C Dixon · Post by **C Dixon** » 9 Mar 2003 11:00 am

Oh David,

I don't believe two players having to tune differently has anything to do with Cabinet drop at all.

This anomaly is due to the old and boring debate about ET versus deviations from ET. In other words, If a player does NOT tune ET (and most don't) then the amount of shift from ET varies like crazy amongst players.

Here is an example. For most players tuning away from ET, they flattent the 3rds. But the problem is, some flatten them more than others. Some stay just under ET (440 ref). Yet others like myself go all the way to NO beats. And if you were to check (with a tuner), you would find given players go anywhere in between JI and ET.

So I feel it is here that is the cause of two players having to retune; rather than any problem with cabinet drop. This would mean that even with ZERO cabinet drop these "two players" would still retune to their respective method of tuning.

carl

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 9 Mar 2003 12:59 pm

Just because it sounds in tune to you does not mean that you are in tune.

First, let's take the players with a "not so good" ear out of the equation. That done, and with all due respect, I can then beg to differ with this statement. How it "sounds", whether compared to itself, or compared to other instruments or voices, is everything! Let me make a statement here...totally circumstantial, but nevertheless undeniable. Nobody, but nobody, ever got fired because they "sounded good", but their notes didn't agree with some electrical device (a tuner), or some "mathematical formula". On the other hand, many players lose band jobs or session work because they just sound "out of tune"!!! The singer, the bandleader, the engineer, or the producer, don't really care what your tuner says. If it sounds good, you're in. And if it sounds "out"...usually, so are you.

Of course, the caveat here is...you have to have a good "ear". Without it, all the tuning charts, and all the tuners in the world, won't get you where you should be...(relatively) in tune. Not developing this "ear" is what prevents most players who play instruments of variable pitch (just about all instruments, except for keyboard-based instruments) from becomming masters.

Blinding speed, limitless theory knowledge, and wonderful taste, are all pretty much useless if it doesn't "sound good". The only exception to this rule would be if the musician had a very unique or particular style, such that people were willing to suffer through the various "atonalities" just to experience what the artist was saying in another context.

Simply put, unless you have some really captivating style, you'd better be able to play so that it sounds in tune.

Bill Hankey · Post by **Bill Hankey** » 10 Mar 2003 9:34 am

The tuning quandary gets out of hand due to the considerable number of strings on the steel guitar combined with the ultimate challenge of making, and keeping proper adjustments at the changer. It's plain tomfoolery, to think that any steel guitarist will always be on top of his game, in reference to maintaining a perfectly tuned instrument. The time spent battling the odds of a perfectly tuned steel guitar, would easily exceed the time spent playing the instrument. In the first consideration, one must remember that the majority of sounds we hear, are musical sounds that become errant as they are pulled upward or lowered through hundreds of pitch variables. If the root notes, and triads are played with pitch stability, the overall delivery should be well within acceptable limits. That is to say, no need to rush about, and become hypercritical, because of some minor cabinet drop. To get a clear picture of what takes place during cabinet drop, is to envision a tank running over a Toyota, only on a much smaller scale. Brute force is the real culprit, and to counter the reaction,stabilization of the instrument, is on the agenda.

Bill H.

[This message was edited by Bill Hankey on 10 March 2003 at 01:04 PM.]

DaveCarr · Post by **DaveCarr** » 10 Mar 2003 5:40 pm

I've only been playing a few years, but it seems to me that "cabinet drop" is nothing to do with the cabinet bending when you press a pedal.
An analogy:-
If you have a Fender Stratocaster with the "floating" trem with springs in the back of the body, try pulling one string (say pull the 2nd string at the 15th fret up to an E note). Now play the bottom E string, open. The bottom E will now be audibly flat(the increased tension in the 2nd string causes a decrease in tension in the other strings which evens things up). No pedals there.

I believe that "cabinet drop" is a similar effect, where increased tension in one string affects the tension of other strings at the changer.
I dare say this has been said before (apologies).
Dave

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 10 Mar 2003 6:17 pm

There's only one problem with that theory, Dave. On the guitar with the "floating tremolo", the strings are not against firm stops, as they are in a steel guitar, but are "balanced" by spring tension. Electric straight guitars are especially sensitive to stresses. To prove this, take a sensitive tuner, and take a reading on any string while holding the straight guitar by the body and pointing the neck straight up. Now, turn the guitar so the neck is parallel with the ground, and the fingerboard is facing up...the mere weight of the neck is enough to slightly detune the guitar!

Of course, it's easy to see if cabinet body flex affects your pedal steel. With a tuner in-line, pick any open string. Now while the string is still ringing, take your thumb and push down firmly on the center of the steel. If it's like most pedal steels, you'll notice a change on the tuner.

That's cabinet drop!

C Dixon · Post by **C Dixon** » 10 Mar 2003 8:34 pm

Donny is correct. And if you have not tried it, it might surprise you.

Larry Bell · Post by **Larry Bell** » 10 Mar 2003 8:45 pm

Donny,
What does your Millennium do when you do the 'Thumb Push' (sounds like a line dance, doesn't it?)?

Inquiring minds want to know.

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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 2000 Fessenden S-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps

David L. Donald · Post by **David L. Donald** » 11 Mar 2003 2:45 am

Ok, if the thumb test is any indication then left hand preasure differences could easily acount for two players retuning as they change over.

As far as tuning JI or ET my oldest and dearest friend is a piano tuner rebuilder for 35 years. I recorded him in NYC in january and he ended up giving a 45 minute lecture to all 3 studio engineers about their Yamaha grand. They took notes too. A piano is much harder to deal with tuning wise than a PSG, cabinet drop aside, But ultimately the same issues apply.
And even in a grand piano, there is an equivelent to cabinet drop, albeit not as bad.

A balancing of the tunings in all its states. For each piano and player/owner there are different ways to be right. Same for a PSG.
[This message was edited by David L. Donald on 11 March 2003 at 02:51 AM.]