Sho-Bud Pro1 Rebuild?

Sven Kontio · Post by **Sven Kontio** » 6 Jul 2017 11:46 am

Hi guys! I thought IÂ´d drop a line here to see if thereÂ´s any help out there...

IÂ´ve got this early Pro 1 with two hole bellcranks, barrels/no racks and socket head pull rods (two different sizes) - a terrible system as far as IÂ´m concerned... So I was thinking about removing the barrels, pull rods and the swivels and change all to set screw swivels and threaded pull rods with nylon tuners.

What do you think of that kinda change? Anybody done that? Any suggestions?

Where should I buy rods and swivels?

//Sven

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Edward Rhea · Post by **Edward Rhea** » 6 Jul 2017 11:58 am

Actually, that's one of the most favorable systems that Sho~Bud produced(IMO)...if you don't like it, don't change it, sell it to someone who will appreciate it?

Lane Gray · Post by **Lane Gray** » 6 Jul 2017 12:20 pm

I'm with Eddie. The single/single Bud will allow almost as many changes as you want.
You shouldn't have two different sizes of rods, that's odd. I'd probably ask Michael Yahl for proper replacement of the off-size rods.
Clean it, lube the pivot rivets and the swivels, but NEVER lube the barrels.
If you are determined to make the change, you'll be limited to double raises, and you'll have to drill the holes for the second raise (or lower).

Tony Prior · Post by **Tony Prior** » 6 Jul 2017 12:22 pm

A tone monster, the 2 hole puller configuration following this one had the barrels removed and set screws added to secure the rods in the swivels.

As said above, this is one of the premier Sho Bud systems. Sure it has some drawbacks with regard to a pull here and there but overall a fine system, very popular with the Sho Bud fan club.

Just curious, what do you NOT like about it ?

Jason Putnam · Post by **Jason Putnam** » 6 Jul 2017 12:33 pm

That's the system most desirable to a Shobud or so I thought. The only downfall I can see is the lack of pull timing due to only having the two bellcrank positions. Other than that, you can run about any setup you want with what you have. I have 3x5 and it works flawlessly.

Tony Glassman · Post by **Tony Glassman** » 6 Jul 2017 1:23 pm

One would have to drill and tap all the swivels for setscrews to use the nylon hex tuners.

Also, you would lose the capacity to have multiple changes operating independently on the same string pull rod

Kevin Mincke · Post by **Kevin Mincke** » 6 Jul 2017 8:36 pm

Don't do it, what others have said above is good info.

Sven Kontio · Post by **Sven Kontio** » 6 Jul 2017 10:53 pm

Thanks yÂ´all for comments! Love them! DidnÂ´t expect to see such positive remarks on the barrel system though.

Thing is IÂ´m an Emmons pp-guy, and on a pp all is in place, stays in place, no loose ends. IÂ´m new to the Sho-Bud guitars and this Pro 1 has the barrel system which to me feels a bit unreliable; sometimes the barrels spin when trying to tune, they seem to not attach properly to the swivel (same thing), I see the risk of the spring end breaking... Sense of unreliability basically I guess is the foremost reason to wanting to make the change. Sho-Bud changed the system efter merely a few years (adding racks and finally removed the barrels) so I thought it was a poor system, but you guys have got me curious.

It could just be me..! There is a chance that I just donÂ´t understand the mechanism - not that it seems a whole lot you shouldnÂ´t be able to understand, but it might not be adjusted properly... or IÂ´m making a bigger fuzz about this than it is..? Maybe taking myself out of the equation would solve the problem..?

/Sven

Tony Prior · Post by **Tony Prior** » 7 Jul 2017 1:27 am

Sven Kontio wrote:Thanks yÂ´all for comments! Love them! DidnÂ´t expect to see such positive remarks on the barrel system though.

Thing is IÂ´m an Emmons pp-guy, and on a pp all is in place, stays in place, no loose ends. IÂ´m new to the Sho-Bud guitars and this Pro 1 has the barrel system which to me feels a bit unreliable; sometimes the barrels spin when trying to tune, they seem to not attach properly to the swivel (same thing), I see the risk of the spring end breaking... Sense of unreliability basically I guess is the foremost reason to wanting to make the change. Sho-Bud changed the system efter merely a few years (adding racks and finally removed the barrels) so I thought it was a poor system, but you guys have got me curious.

It could just be me..! There is a chance that I just donÂ´t understand the mechanism - not that it seems a whole lot you shouldnÂ´t be able to understand, but it might not be adjusted properly... or IÂ´m making a bigger fuzz about this than it is..? Maybe taking myself out of the equation would solve the problem..?

/Sven

Well in fairness we are talking about a guitar and PARTS that are 44 years old. It's time for a refurbish of the entire underside, barrels, swivels, springs, and of course "changer fingers". Clean, repair, replace parts as required. I own 2 PP's , both from early 80's, both have been thru the eyes and hands of a PP expert. Neither were great when I acquired them now both are great.

Do not expect the PULL timing of that Sho Bud to be like other ALL PULL Steels. They play well, sound great, they are very reliable and can be set up close. Sho Bud didn't go to a 5 hole all pull bell crank system until the end of the 70's.

It's like driving a 55 Chevy without Power Steering but the drive is excellent and worth it !

Igor Fiksman · Post by **Igor Fiksman** » 7 Jul 2017 9:15 am

Slightly off topic. I understand that with the barrel behind 2 hole puller system you can have as many changes as you want by having multiple barrels behind pullers on the same pull rod. But I have hard time visualising how you would tune multiple changes on a single rod. Wouldn't you have to flip a guitar and individually adjust each barrel? Sounds difficult to do on stage. What am I missing?

Ken Pippus · Post by **Ken Pippus** » 7 Jul 2017 9:52 am

The barrels are only under tension, and therefore tunable, when the lever or pedal which activates them are applied. Barrels on other pulls "ignore" the tuning turns.

Jason Putnam · Post by **Jason Putnam** » 8 Jul 2017 9:05 am

Just a bit of advice, I think a lot of issues people have with the barrel system happens because they lube the barrels. The barrels need tension to keep them from inadvertently turning when a change is engaged. If they have been oiled, they will be too easy to turn and therefore will not hold their position.

Tony Prior · Post by **Tony Prior** » 8 Jul 2017 12:34 pm

I recall when I set up the Pro III (same system) the 9th and the 2nd full tone lower should be at the same stop at the same time. Then go back and do the 2nd string 1/2 stop with the barrel stop.

Never had an issue with bringing them both all in on several Sho Buds of this configuration.

Make sure the K lever travel stop is good for the full tone lower and the 9th string lower. There may not be enough travel for the 9th string while the 2nd string has the barrel to adjust forward or backwards on the pull rod. Also make sure the 9th string rod is in the highest swivel position,(away from body) it adds just a tad more amount of pull.

All things matter

Lane Gray · Post by **Lane Gray** » 9 Jul 2017 12:47 pm

Igor Fiksman wrote:Slightly off topic. I understand that with the barrel behind 2 hole puller system you can have as many changes as you want by having multiple barrels behind pullers on the same pull rod. But I have hard time visualising how you would tune multiple changes on a single rod. Wouldn't you have to flip a guitar and individually adjust each barrel? Sounds difficult to do on stage. What am I missing?

This is easier to picture than to explain, but I'll try.
Each barrel is in two parts; the female part never contacts the swivel, and is securely mounted to the rod (in some cases, the screw doesn't get a good enough "bite' on the rod, but it should not spin). There's a spring with a bit of wire protruding through the male part, and the bit of spring wire engages the swivel.
When you attach the tuning wrench and turn it, you spin the whole rod, and all of the barrels on it. To tune the change, you must activate the change you're trying to tune, so that the swivel (also called the puller) is firmly engaging the barrel of the change, and has pulled the rod free of all the other barrels on that rod.
As you spin it, the puller holds the male half of the barrel stationary, and the female half spins, unscrewing or screwing the two halves, thereby tuning the change.

Does that make sense now?

Sven Kontio · Post by **Sven Kontio** » 10 Jul 2017 1:05 pm

Hi guys!

Thank yÂ´all for your comments! Much appreciated!

So the verdict is that the barrels stay. Period!

I just need to invest some time in learning to understand the system - tuning, adjusting aso.

Thank you again for your invaluable input!

Sven

Damir Besic · Post by **Damir Besic** » 11 Jul 2017 11:00 am

Interestingly, this same system didn't stop Lloyd Green to record gazillion number one hits through the years.... and I believe he is still using the same guitar with the same system to this day.... rather then destroying an awesome vintage instrument, I would suggest buying a different guitar...

Skip Edwards · Post by **Skip Edwards** » 11 Jul 2017 6:04 pm

I believe Lloyd's gtr has nylon tuners, and the rods are fixed at the pullers. Not barrels...
Yes, the barrel/2 hole puller or rack system is wonderful. You can have as many pulls as you want just by adding barrels wherever you can find something to activate it. Good for micro tuning compensators, too.

Sven, just make sure you don't oil or lube the threads in those barrels. You want there to be some resistance so they don't unscrew themselves as you play.

Tony Glassman · Post by **Tony Glassman** » 11 Jul 2017 7:16 pm

Sven Kontio wrote:....... Sho-Bud changed the system efter merely a few years (adding racks and finally removed the barrels) so I thought it was a poor system, but you guys have got me curious.

a small point: The racks preceded the 2 hole pullers rather than replaced them.

Damir Besic · Post by **Damir Besic** » 11 Jul 2017 7:57 pm

Skip Edwards wrote:I believe Lloyd's gtr has nylon tuners, and the rods are fixed at the pullers. Not barrels...

Lloyds guitar is 1973 6150 Sho~Bud LDG , round front, 1/1 changer with barrels behind two hole pullers.... this model was made for only one year in 1973....or at least that's what I thought....

Brint Hannay · Post by **Brint Hannay** » 11 Jul 2017 8:37 pm

Actually it continued till at least March 27, 1974, when my round-front LDG was completed, according to Gene Haugh's records.

My experience with the barrels can be summarized as "Set 'em and forget 'em". Once you establish the relationship between the barrels on a rod (e.g. the F lever raise and the C pedal F# raise on string 4), it's only necessary to tune at the changer--the barrels don't "slip"--no fooling with barrels at the gig. In my opinion (and many others') it's a great system.

Brint Hannay · Post by **Brint Hannay** » 11 Jul 2017 8:47 pm

Tony Prior wrote:I recall when I set up the Pro III (same system) the 9th and the 2nd full tone lower should be at the same stop at the same time. Then go back and do the 2nd string 1/2 stop with the barrel stop.

Tony, was there actually a Pro III with the barrels-behind-two-hole-pullers system? I thought the Pro III began in about '75 or '76, when the system was two-hole pullers with fixed swivels (like my '77 Pro III).

Damir Besic · Post by **Damir Besic** » 11 Jul 2017 10:23 pm

Brint Hannay wrote:Actually it continued till at least March 27, 1974, when my round-front LDG was completed, according to Gene Haugh's records.

My experience with the barrels can be summarized as "Set 'em and forget 'em". Once you establish the relationship between the barrels on a rod (e.g. the F lever raise and the C pedal F# raise on string 4), it's only necessary to tune at the changer--the barrels don't "slip"--no fooling with barrels at the gig. In my opinion (and many others') it's a great system.

Brint, how would you tune 1/1 changer with barrel behind a puller at the changer? I always thought you tune it at the barrel... unless you have nylon tuners at the changer side....

Skip Edwards · Post by **Skip Edwards** » 11 Jul 2017 10:33 pm

Damir, the barrels do the actual adjusting, but they are tuned at the changer. The rods have fixed hex ends at the changer... it's the opposite of the later system, where the rods are fixed at the pullers and the screwing in & out takes place at the changer with the nylon ends.
Lloyd's gtr is indeed a first-gen round front Bud, but it's been updated to nylon tuners, as well as having straight KLs.

Tony, in all these years I've only seen one round front/barrels/two hole puller ProIII.
It's a really cool black one...I've got a pic of it somewhere.
Barrels were, and still are used in half stop tuners.

Damir Besic · Post by **Damir Besic** » 11 Jul 2017 11:25 pm

Skip, how would you tune fixed rods at the changer if rods are spinning freely with the barrel on the other end? wouldn't rods have to be fasten somehow to the bell crank in order to do tuning at the changer?i wasn't aware Lloyds guitar was updated, but that explains why I can't see barrels... rods are probably fasten to the bell cranks with a little set screws, and that's why he can tune his guitar at the changer end using nylon tuners... I don't think it is possible to tune original '73 1/1 changer LDG at the changer end... but I may be wrong...

Jason Putnam · Post by **Jason Putnam** » 12 Jul 2017 6:38 am

The barrel system also tunes at the changer end. The barrel is two piece brass threaded together with a spring in between. One part is tightened on the rod with a set screw. There is a little piece of the spring that pokes through and catches on the swivel when the pedal is pressed. As you turn the rod from the changer end, the barrel screws in thereby shortening the length of the rod or screws out thereby lengthening the rod. It works on the same principle as the nylon tuners expect the screwing in and out happens at the other end.