Newbie Question...10 or 12?

Larry Bell · Post by **Larry Bell** » 25 Apr 2005 2:18 pm

Donny,
You must have never heard a Maurice Anderson album. Some of the jazz stuff he did with horns in the 70's is at least on a par with Chalker, IMHO. Plus, Reece will tell you what changes are on his guitar BEFORE he's dead.

Pete,
(I know these aren't your views, but I have to say something about a few of them -- unfortunately I don't have time to address more -- probably fortunately for the readers

)

They feel that there are intonation issues such that they can never get all the combinations of chords that they like to use, "in tune", on a single neck, and they don't like to use compensators.

We've all heard this drivel for years. If a universal tuning were not tunable, perfectionists like Reece and Joe would not be using one.

They don't like that the string 9 C# (with the A pedal down) is out of tune when released from D (using the B to D lever).

There ARE solutions. I use Jerry Fessenden's solution and it works great.
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Oh yeah...
No Pro's play Universals.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Those who assert this must not consider Reece, Joe Wright, David Wright,
Junior Knight, Bud Carter, and several others, to be professionals. (whatever that means -- I thought it meant you get paid to play, but this definition is apparently not what you mean since both you and I meet this definition).

I'll say it again. I can tell you in a minute whether a guy can play or not by listening to them. The VAST majority of those who CAN play CAN PLAY ANY TUNING. They just have their preferences that let them play that little 2% or 5% extra that goes beyond the basic tuning and changes.

------------------
Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps
[This message was edited by Larry Bell on 25 April 2005 at 03:27 PM.]

Archie Nicol · Post by **Archie Nicol** » 25 Apr 2005 3:34 pm

As a newbie(is that a word?)to`universal`, this thread is very helpful. I thought losing the 9th string D would be a pain, but it's starting to fall in to place. I have become used to the B to D change(LKL) pretty quickly for E9th stuff and am about to set about the B6th. Wish me luck.
Thanks, Arch.

David Doggett · Post by **David Doggett** » 25 Apr 2005 8:22 pm

Many of the complaints about unis that Pete mentions are simply prejudices that come from starting out on a D10. Someone who starts on a uni and tries a D10 will have just as many prejudices against D10s. However, the tuning and mechanical problems are worth discussing.

I very thoroughly examined the potential tuning problems in playing both in E9 and B6 mode on the same neck. I found no problems that wouldn't exist on E9 or C6. If you tune everything straight up ET, then of course there can be no problem with a uni, other than the usual cabinet drop problems. So double-neckers who tune ET can have no complaints. For those of us who prefer JI, I found no more conflicts than on 10-string E9 or C6 (i.e, the usual F lever problem and cabinet drop problems). On an E9/B6 uni, B is the V of E, and E is the IV of B. In a given JI scale I, IV and V chords all have proper JI intervals. Therefore, JI scales in which some of these chords are the same have proper JI intervals for all these chords in both keys. Therefore, all these chords can be made up from either JI scale with no intonation conflicts between either the strings or pedal and knee stops. These are two highly compatible JI keys. I found this to be true of the straight I, IV, V7, VIm, and IIm chords in both modes. I had never heard any serious problems in tuning my unis, and when I calculated the theoretical JI frequencies, I found no theoretical conflicts between the two modes. I have not investigated the theoretical frequencies for 9ths, llths, 13ths, flatted 5ths, diminished, augmenteds, etc., but I have never noticed any glaring intonation problems with these. Because these are naturally dissonant chords, intonation problems would not stand out with these as clearly as they would on the straight major and minor chords.

Mechanically I think there is no question that a uni is a bigger challenge to a manufacturer than a double-neck. There are more changes per string, and more pulls per pedal/lever. Nevertheless, the top manufacturers who make unis, are very successful in dealing with these challenges, and several unis are manufactured that perform adequately on all counts.

So there are no show stoppers in the complaints Pete lists, only preferences. [This message was edited by David Doggett on 25 April 2005 at 09:35 PM.]

Kiyoshi Osawa · Post by **Kiyoshi Osawa** » 26 Apr 2005 6:41 am

I was afraid this post would become another one of those "D10 vs U12" deathmatches. But there is some discussion here not found on other posts on the subject. Trust me, I did ALOT of research here before deciding to go universal.

The problem I usually find with all these posts, is that they discuss issues and problems for which newbies (like I was when I decided to switch) have no perspective. Not that I'm a big expert now or anything, but let me explain myself.

When guys like Larry Bell and b0b and all the others start discussing the practical differences in the use of this or that setup, they speak from years and years of experience. They know their copedants in and out, and probably all the others just as well. But these points just don't make sense if you don't UNDERSTAND the tuning, either D10 OR U12.

I personally went with the universal because it jibed well with my concept of what I wanted to acheive with the instrument, as well as my overall conception of music in general. But it was only AFTER playing for a while on the Universal, and understood the chord grips, the pedals and changes, the phisical limitations of having so many changes, that all these discussions clicked in my brain.

Not to diss b0b and Larry's discussion! It's actually very interesting for me (now that I know what their talking about!). But I do feel that the most important point to make when discussing the PERSONAL PREFERENCE involved in choosing a U12 over a D10 should be grounded on the individual's conception and commitment to the music he wants to make on his instrument. Not on the mechanical or practical advantages of either set up.

There's a point usually made by somebody or another on these D10 vs U12 posts about how "if you play traditional country and western swing you want a D10. If you play anything else, get a U12."

This is obviously a simplification, but it reaches the point explicitly. If your intention is to partake in a certain tradition and heritage, go for a D10. If tradition and heritage aren't that important to you, go for a U12.

There's nothing wrong with going either way. And they are not mutually exclusive either. It all depends on what your "meat and potatoes" is going to be. Besides, you can allways change from one to the other later on. What you learn on one will DEFINATELY help alot when learning the other.

I personally went with the Universal and I love it. But then again, I play in a punk-surf-rockabilly band, so...

anyway, sorry to hijack the post, and whichever way you decide to go, there are enough people here on both sides of the fence to help you out either way!

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 26 Apr 2005 8:04 am

What it all boils down to is EITHER YOU CAN PLAY OR YOU CAN'T. What tuning you use is neither here nor there. If you can play, a S-10 E9 with just the A and B pedals will give you a lot of music. If you can't play, a D-14 with 12 pedals and 12 levers still won't be enough.

Well said, Larry. At least, we agree on that!

My reccomendation to a newbie all boils down to the fact that there is just a ton more instructional material available for S10/D10 than there is for S12U, and clearer standards for S10/D10 pedal/lever setup and string arrangement exist.

Pete, I heartily agree with that, too!

Donny, You must have never heard a Maurice Anderson album. Some of the jazz stuff he did with horns in the 70's is at least on a par with Chalker, IMHO.

HOLY HADES, BATMAN! That's like telling Carl Dixon he hasn't listened to Buddy Emmons!

Can't agree there, though, Larry. Reece is a very underrated player, and is easily on par with just about anyone out there right now. However, his jazz playing has much more single-string work than Chalker's. I find Reece's jazz playing very similar to Emmons and Jernigan. Chalker, on the other hand, did a lot more chord work (he wasn't called "chord-king" for nothing), and he was an expert at the use of those lower voicings. No one's come close to that stuff, yet, IMHO. Anyone who hasn't heard BHOBS is missing out. From my humble perspective, there's only two "landmark" C6th steel albums out there, "Steel Guitar Jazz", and BHOBS. If ever there was an old and new testament to C6th, they're it.

I'm far from being a musical expert, but I don't feel the necessity of 8-note chord voicings has been proven. Shucks, keyboard players don't use 8-note voicings that often! That stuff's interesting, neat, and it may trip your trigger (as in Larry's and Bob's case)...but lest we mislead the newbies here (who seek our guidance in all things), it sure ain't "necessary", for jazz, or any other kind of music.

My rants done. Sorry for the "hijack".

The "newbies" come here all the time, seeking the essence of what they need. But, in steel guitar, as in life, what you want, and what you really need are worlds apart.

That's all I'm trying to say.

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 26 Apr 2005 9:13 am

I don't think Graeme minds these diversions in his topic...

I subscribe to the theory that lower notes require wider intervals around them. The low strings of the E9th are pretty much "unstrummable" because of the close intervals. The C6th and the U-12 solve this problem nicely by increasing the interval size on the lower strings.

Notice that, on the U-12, there are only 3 intervals covering the lowest octave (B E G# B), while the highest octave has 5 intervals (G# B D# E F# G#). This is no accident.

I almost never strum or sound out chords with more than 4 notes. If I wanted those big chord voicings I would choose the standard U-12 or D-10 (for the C6th) over the Extended E9th.

------------------
<img align=right src="http://b0b.com/Hotb0b.gif" width="96 height="96">Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs, Open Hearts
Sierra SD-12 (Ext E9), Williams D-12 Crossover, Sierra S-12 (F Diatonic)
Sierra Laptop 8 (E6add9), Fender Stringmaster (E13, C6, A6)

Graeme Smart · Post by **Graeme Smart** » 26 Apr 2005 10:05 am

No prob, b0b. Learning a lot. About steel and steelers.
g

Bob Hoffnar · Post by **Bob Hoffnar** » 26 Apr 2005 12:17 pm

I played a U12 for years and switched to a D10. I find the D10 suits me much better. For a beginner I would say start simple with an S10 E9 if that is the sound that got you excited about the steel.

The U12 has been around for a very long time. With all the furious typing going on about how great the U12 is around here you would think it would catch on. It hasn't.

When I switched to a D10 I felt stupid for wasting so much time with the U12.

BTW: I am a non traditional player and I play pedalsteel for a living.
------------------
Bob
intonation help

[This message was edited by Bob Hoffnar on 26 April 2005 at 01:27 PM.]

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 26 Apr 2005 1:24 pm

I don't agree that the U-12 "hasn't caught on", Bob. People were playing it 30 years ago and people are playing it today. I think it has a firm foothold in the steel guitar world.

Extended E9th, which I play, is the tuning that "hasn't caught on". I like it a lot but the U-12 players outnumber Extended E9th players by something like 10 to 1. I only know one person who's changed to Extended E9th in the past decade.

David Doggett · Post by **David Doggett** » 26 Apr 2005 1:54 pm

Bob H., if you didn't find stuff you wanted to play on a uni that can't be done on a D10, then I would agree you wasted your time on it. If a D10 does all you want, and you don't mind the extra size and weight, then you should have had a D10 all along.

When I moved from S10 E9 to a uni, I wasn't very interested in C6. I was looking for more low strings on an E9, for blues, rock and classical. I tried both extended E9 and a uni, and decided I much preferred the uni.

Once I had the uni, in addition to using the low strings in E9 mode, I began to explore the B6 mode. I discovered I could use the 6th stuff in rockabilly, mostly playing it like a 6th lap steel, using the lever that gives me the low D (equivalent to pedal 6 on C6) to get the IV7 and V7, much as you use the AB pedals to get IV and V on E9. I also began to use some 6th neck jazz chords in blues songs like Stormy Monday. Now I am working on jazz standards like My Funny Valentine, in which I use a mix of E9 and B6 mode chords. I still am more E9 oriented, but frankly find that much of the things the standard B6 pedals and levers do are redundant and can be done as well or better when the entire E9 palette is also available from note to note. I suppose relying on E9 chords may stunt my 6th neck development. But the mixture of the two modes just seems so much more powerful and versatile than either mode alone.

My uni is 8&5. Someday I would like to add a middle cluster dedicated to B6 to begin to learn the Emmons/Jernigan/Cohen type of bebop. However, even when I play modern jazz, I am more blues oriented than swing oriented. I find that any blues changes I add to either E9 or B6 are more useful to me in modern jazz than the old swing derived 6th neck stuff. Maybe this is just my unique orientation and preference. For the moment I have decided not to worry about this, and to fully immerse myself in the mixture of the two modes rather than trying to artificially force myself to stick with one mode or the other simply for the sake of learning that mode alone. Other than as an excercise, what is the point of sticking to one mode, when both are always available to me?

In addition to Reece, Larry Bell and Joe Wright, my "one-neck" inspirations are now also Bill Stafford and the Sacred Steelers. Bill plays a 14-string uni, but he only has one extra low string (his other extra string is at the top), so much of his style is available on a 12-string uni. If you listen to Bill, you realize that much of what he does cannot be done on a D10.

I have become so used to the low strings, even just for E9 mode, that if I went to a double-neck, it would need to be a D12. But where does it end? I have decided for the moment that there needs to be some end to the expansion of strings and necks. I mean some people do really well with a single neck and no pedals (like Jerry Byrd and Joaquin Murphy). The uni makes it possible to do so much on a single neck. I should accept that as my limit for the moment and learn to adapt to get what I need with a uni. There is so much more there than I will ever be able to play.

I guess the bottom line is that I don't see the uni as being a way to exactly duplicate everything on E9 and C6. Instead I see it as a third, larger and more versatile tuning, that lacks minor things from traditional E9 and C6, but gains much more that cannot be done on either of the other two.

Bob Hoffnar · Post by **Bob Hoffnar** » 26 Apr 2005 2:24 pm

Bob,
Its funny but I like the extended E9 concept quite a bit.
David,
Something to think of with the number of mathmatical possibilities available on a single neck is that more is not always better. Is a 5 string violin better than a 4 string ? You could use all the charts in the world and clutter up all sorts of internet chat rooms trying to prove that 5 strings is way better. I bet that just as in the pedalsteel world players would prefer to have a viola if they wanted a viola and a violin if they wanted a violin. My personal dislike of the U12 is not based on mathmatical possibilities. Its based on my needs as a player to express myself. Having everything I want crammed onto one neck doesn't work for me. If it works for somebody else than that is great and I look forward to hearing them play.
To type endlessly about how the U12 is better and can do everything and more than a D10 does is misleading and somewhat misinformed. The U12 is cool and works for some guys. Its just a different thing than the D10.

Bob[This message was edited by Bob Hoffnar on 26 April 2005 at 03:29 PM.]

Archie Nicol · Post by **Archie Nicol** » 26 Apr 2005 3:19 pm

I'm a fat bastroid, A U12 fits better.
Cheers, Arch.

Dillon Jackson · Post by **Dillon Jackson** » 26 Apr 2005 4:21 pm

This is a great string and you guys are great for revisiting some of the same material for us beginners. I had a similar question about a month ago and was really asking S-10 or D-10; the responses about U-12 got me thinking and while I was thinking a Zum U-12 popped up on the forum. Thinking over. Now I got pedals and grips I still am figuring out. But E9 is right there (couple strings further away I think)when I get frustrated. I agree that the learning material is thinner, but it can be found.

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 27 Apr 2005 10:10 am

Is a 5 string violin better than a 4 string?

It all depends on whether you want low notes or not.

John De Maille · Post by **John De Maille** » 27 Apr 2005 11:07 am

Personally, I think that if you started on some sort of beginners ten string E-9th, then you should upgrade to a more professional and adaptable 10 string E-9th. An S-10 with at least 3p-4k. You can always add more floor pedals and knee levers later, when you feel you need them.
Also, there is more available instuctional material for the S-10, that the U-12. There is a whole lot a music to be played on a S-10. If you feel that, later on, you want to try a U-12, you'll already have a solid knowledge of E-9th, which is right there in front of you anyway.( no switching of necks )
I've been playing a U-12 for almost 2 yrs now, and I love it. It suits my tastes for what I want to play. I'm not a heavy jazz player, but, I do like western swing and using all the passing chords. And then, in the middle of any tune, I can switch modes and play it strictly country E-9th or back again to B-6th. Great stuff!!
You've gotten a lot of opinions here and they're all correct as far as I'm concerned. I don't think you'll go wrong with either choice. Just remember, the S-10 has more instructional material, but, the U-12 has more musical advantages with the lower strings. I played an S-11, E-9th, for 26 yrs before I switched to a U-12. The S-11 is basically an E-9th with an octave lower E string for the 11th. (ala-Tom Brumley)

David Doggett · Post by **David Doggett** » 27 Apr 2005 11:35 am

Bob H., please don't put words in my mouth. I would never say a uni is better than a D10. For some things, yes; for other things, no. And I clearly said I do not expect a uni to duplicate everything that can be done on a D10. I said (or meant to say) that a uni is a third tuning that is larger and more versatile than either of the the other two alone. I think that is true by the dictionary definitions of those words. Of course a D10 has 20 strings, and so is larger than a uni in that sense. But you can't play all 20 strings at once with the bar. How about making a triple-10 by adding a Sacred Steel neck to a D10? Where do you stop? They use to have quads before there were pedals and levers. The extra strings and pedals/levers made those unnecessary. I am interested in carrying that to its logical conclusion in the one neck of the universal. At the moment I have decided I want one neck to play all the time for every conceivable kind of music. The uni is the best way so far to do that.

Other instruments do not have this schizophrenic division that ties mechanics with musical genres. There are not separate saxaphones or pianos for "Nashville country" and "Western swing." Any other instrument that was specialized to only play the notes of one genre would be considered ridiculously limited. The D10 is a product of its history coming from these two special genres - likewise, the Sacred Steel E7 tuning comes from gospel/blues. These specialized necks are unsurpassed within their own genre. But the universal is moving in the other direction, converging the seperate, genre-specific, necks into one neck for all genres. For those of us interested in many genres, this is better. If I made my living playing commercial country and/or Western Swing, I might be more happy with a traditional D10.

Young players, should be free to experiment and choose the type of instrument that best suits the types of music they want to play. For some that might be a 6-string lap steel, for others a D10, 13-string E7, or a universal. If young players had not done this type of experimenting in the past, we would all be playing fretted 6-string guitars.

At this point I will stick my neck out. It may be that the golden age of country and Western pedal steel guitar that is synonymous with the D10 is passing. If the pedal steel is to expand into other genres such as rock, blues, pop, hip-hop, jazz and classical music, do we want to invent a new neck for each different genre? If you want to try to come up with a single neck for all genres, I contend the universal is the best configuration for that so far. And I would encourage young players interested in these other genres to try a universal.

The fact that "most of the top pro steelers" still play D10s does not really change this, because most of the top pro steelers still play country and Western, not all these other genres. If you look at the innovative steelers playing in these other genres, suddenly you begin to see a lot of S12s, S13s and S14s; and among these, some version of the universal is the most common configuration. I think it has real staying power.

Kiyoshi Osawa · Post by **Kiyoshi Osawa** » 27 Apr 2005 11:54 am

now that's what I'M talkin' about ese...
amen David!

David L. Donald · Post by **David L. Donald** » 27 Apr 2005 12:05 pm

My reasons for going to a U-14 is to have 9th and 5th on top,
and room to experiment below.

On C6 I want both D and G, so eventually I will jigger the s-14
till it gives me both in the most useful, way, for me.

Mac Lloyd · Post by **Mac Lloyd** » 28 Apr 2005 12:00 am

I started reading this because I felt that it was time to move over from a S-10 to something I could get a little 6th sound out of but I realized when I didn't understand any of this lingo...

V13 V13b9 IMa7

It was time for me to settle on an 8 string lap steel for the 6th stuff and call it good. But then there is always the weight issue, one neck or two and so on.

Seriously, it has been enlightening I am glad Graeme asked the pro's for their guidance. Before tonight I thought I was going U-12 but now I wonder if I am up to the task.

Oh an b0b can you play U-12 with 9 fingers?

[Message edited for clarity.][This message was edited by Mac Lloyd on 28 April 2005 at 01:08 AM.]

Bob Hoffnar · Post by **Bob Hoffnar** » 28 Apr 2005 6:40 am

Seriously, it has been enlightening I am glad Graeme asked the pro's for their guidance.

What pro's have said anything on this thread ?

BTW: If you skip the 5th or the root of those chords you where asking about they can be played on a C6 or E13 lapsteel pretty easy. Check out Tom Morrel's playing. He plays circles around just about everbody with one of those wave of the future universal lap steels

------------------
Bob
intonation help

David L. Donald · Post by **David L. Donald** » 28 Apr 2005 8:03 am

Mac don't worry about being up to the task.
You need NOT play hugely voiced chords like V13b9..
it's just that they are there to use if you want.

You will play a V7 and likely add some notes on top, by feel and enjoy it.
Or you may just play in a top octave,
and then a bottom octave at different times.

All steels come with a built in learning curve,
An, S-10 , U-12 or D-10 will ALL make you think...
this ain't a bad thing at all.

You also have a raft of amaturs,
and a few pros to answer theory questions here.

You need not know ALL, just to make music.

What Bob said about Tom Morrell is sure true.
He does play super with no pedals. Seen and heard it my self.
But he also sometimes DOES play pedals too.

David Doggett · Post by **David Doggett** » 28 Apr 2005 8:45 am

Bob H. is right. The vast majority of pros (none of whom have chimed in here) play country and Western Swing on D10s. I myself am a clumsy amateur experimentalist dabbling in rockabilly, blues, jazz and classical music (as well as traditional country and country rock). If you want to hear some pros on a uni, check out Reece Anderson, Joe Wright (lots of CDs and instructional material), and Bill Stafford. I don't know if Larry Bell considers himself a pro, but his uni stuff is gorgeous. Likewise Mike Perlowin and his classical music.[This message was edited by David Doggett on 28 April 2005 at 09:47 AM.]

David L. Donald · Post by **David L. Donald** » 28 Apr 2005 11:07 am

Don't forget David Wright too.

Larry Bell · Post by **Larry Bell** » 28 Apr 2005 12:21 pm

I don't know if Larry Bell considers himself a pro

I don't hardly even consider myself a STEEL PLAYER, Dave, but thanks for putting me in such high caliber company.

------------------
Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps

Joe Miraglia · Post by **Joe Miraglia** » 28 Apr 2005 2:03 pm

Larry--Yes you are,I know! I bought a U12 Fessenden and love it. U12 seems the way to go for me. I did some research and learned from your Website. Thanks. I hope the Beast isn't jealous. Joe www.willowcreekband.com [This message was edited by Joe Miraglia on 28 April 2005 at 03:20 PM.]