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Topic: The Advent of the Reverse Slant |
Sebastian Müller
From: Berlin / Germany
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Posted 10 Feb 2017 1:26 am
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Studying the old steel masters like Sol Hoopii and Dick McIntire I realized that it is very rare to find any reverse slants in their music. When do you think reverse slants became more common ? It's definitely related to the choice of tuning, for example the Rogers-Family D-Tuning asks for a lot of Reverse slants although it's still a very simple tuning. Any thoughts ?
Aloha
Sebastian _________________ https://hawaiian-steel-guitar.com |
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Mike Neer
From: NJ
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Posted 10 Feb 2017 3:54 am
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Only necessary in the earlier tunings to harmonize in 6ths or in the case of A tuning achieve a diminished triad. C6 offered more harmonic rewards for reverse slanting. _________________ Links to streaming music, websites, YouTube: Links |
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Ian Rae
From: Redditch, England
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Posted 10 Feb 2017 5:03 am
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I have never played non-pedal, but I have always believed that the C6 pedals on the pedal steel replaced the commonest slants:-
of which the 3rd is a reverse. I assumed it was common practice. _________________ Make sleeping dogs tell the truth!
Homebuilt keyless U12 7x5, Excel keyless U12 8x8, Williams keyless U12 7x8, Telonics rack and 15" cabs |
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Mike Neer
From: NJ
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Posted 10 Feb 2017 5:24 am
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I definitely use a lot of slants, many reverse. Not always perfect but that's the fun of it. I also find reverse slants to be easier than fw at times on the bass strings. _________________ Links to streaming music, websites, YouTube: Links |
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Doug Beaumier
From: Northampton, MA
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Sebastian Müller
From: Berlin / Germany
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Posted 10 Feb 2017 11:43 pm
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So you suggest that the strong usage of reverse slants startet when players used the C6 tuning ? What time was that, 40s ? _________________ https://hawaiian-steel-guitar.com |
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Stefan Robertson
From: Hertfordshire, UK
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Posted 11 Feb 2017 9:09 pm
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Ian Rae wrote: |
I have never played non-pedal, but I have always believed that the C6 pedals on the pedal steel replaced the commonest slants:-
of which the 3rd is a reverse. I assumed it was common practice. |
I love this. Will practice these as I use them also but never as the moves from one to another. Awesome. Maybe I will repost about pedal moves. _________________ Stefan
Bill Hatcher custom 12 string Lap Steel Guitar
E13#9/F secrets: https://thelapsteelguitarist.wordpress.com
"Give it up for The Lap Steel Guitarist" |
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Stefan Robertson
From: Hertfordshire, UK
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Posted 11 Feb 2017 9:14 pm
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I agree with Mike that Reverse slants are easier on lower strings for sure but I can't tell as much as I slant for whatever inversion I am learning so either way no difference.
Its a part of steel playing that can't be beat. _________________ Stefan
Bill Hatcher custom 12 string Lap Steel Guitar
E13#9/F secrets: https://thelapsteelguitarist.wordpress.com
"Give it up for The Lap Steel Guitarist" |
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Sebastian Müller
From: Berlin / Germany
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Posted 12 Feb 2017 8:16 am
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I use reverse slants more and more, mostly on string 2+4 in A Highbass and C#min tuning. _________________ https://hawaiian-steel-guitar.com |
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Andy Volk
From: Boston, MA
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Posted 12 Feb 2017 10:08 am
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I got rid of all my very old method books a while ago so can't check on this, but it strikes me that reverse slants were in use from the earliest days of steel playing. Anybody have a circa WWI method book to corroborate my theory?  _________________ Steel Guitar Books! Website: www.volkmediabooks.com |
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David M Brown
From: California, USA
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Posted 12 Feb 2017 11:17 am
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Andy Volk wrote: |
I got rid of all my very old method books a while ago so can't check on this, but it strikes me that reverse slants were in use from the earliest days of steel playing. Anybody have a circa WWI method book to corroborate my theory?  |
I can't find the old method I learned from either...it was for A low bass, had a guy in a sailor suit, was circa WWI vintage.
I have been using reverse slants a long time. I was surprised how rare they are in the printed early literature.
In old fashioned A tunings, I will use runs in 6ths using straight bar and reverse slants on strings 2 and 4.
Also, I use the cadence of part of an E7 chord, the G# and D, frets 4 and 5 as a reverse slant on strings 1 and 3 resolving to an A chord with a forward slant A and C# on frets 5 and 4.
I found several examples of this in the "Superior Collection of Steel Guitar Solos vol 1" by Keoki Awai. Copyright 1917.
Stacy Phillips' transcription of "Pupu o 'Ewa" has a reverse slant:
Check the second E7 chord, frets 15 and 16.
Phillips' first book also has reverse slants in several examples too, pages 74 and 76 among them.
Then I have a couple examples in C#m/E7 tuning from "Andy Iona's Folio of Hawaiian Songs No. 517". Copyright 1939.
Low to high B D E G# C# E
"My Rose of Waikiki" on page 5, maybe arranged by Alex Hoapili, a Db9 chord on strings 2, 3 and 4 frets 14,15, and 16.
The same reverse slant is used as a maj 7 chord on page 9, same tuning, for "Soft Hawaiian Breeze".
This is pretty contemporary with Dick McIntire and in a similar tuning if I recall.
I'll try to find more examples. |
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Guy Cundell
From: More idle ramblings from South Australia
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Posted 12 Feb 2017 3:51 pm
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I have quite a bit of old paper in one form or another. My observations are that, yes, there are a few examples of reverse slants in publications around WWI but they are rare. Here is an elegant example of a V7 to I cadence (as mentioned by David) in a 1916 method book by N.D. Bailey. However, I can find no reference to the technique in any method book concerned with Low A.
In High Bass A, however, the technique is specifically detailed in both Alvino Rey’s book and the Gibson method book, both 1937 publications. The Gibson method shows how reverse slants can be used for major, diminished and augmented triads and dominant 7th chords. I suspect that Alvino Rey had input into the Gibson publication.
Moving on to E7, C#m and F#9, I have found no reverse slants in McIntire’s arrangements for F#9 or E7 and only a solitary example in Sol’s arrangements for C#m, all published by Ball. Nor have I found any in Bernie Kai’s arrangements for Ray Meany’s Golden Gate Publications. It is true to say that reverse slants are an advanced technique and most of these publications are fairly safe and not aimed at professional players. |
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Mike Neer
From: NJ
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Posted 12 Feb 2017 3:58 pm
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That aligns pretty squarely with what I said in my first post. The reverse is a necessity in the early tunings only for the diminished triad in A tunings (it's a split slant) and for harmonies in sixths or even thirds on adjacent strings). I've spent enough time with all the tunings to see their usefulness/limitations. C6 still seems to be the one with the most hidden surprises. _________________ Links to streaming music, websites, YouTube: Links |
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Andy Volk
From: Boston, MA
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Posted 12 Feb 2017 5:59 pm
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Thanks for the visual evidence, gents. It would have been interesting to have film of the earliest players and I agree that some advanced techniques were likely not shared in teaching methods. Good to know the history behind our instrument, however esoteric. _________________ Steel Guitar Books! Website: www.volkmediabooks.com |
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David Matzenik
From: Cairns, on the Coral Sea
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Posted 12 Feb 2017 6:28 pm
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Here is evidence that the reverse slant predates Sol Ho'opi'i by several thousand years.
The faint bar can be seen under the index finger of our ancient forebear.
 _________________ Don't go in the water after lunch. You'll get a cramp and drown. - Mother. |
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George Rout
From: St. Catharines, Ontario, Canada
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Posted 12 Feb 2017 8:42 pm
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C'mon David, that is a picture of some nice scenery on a model railroad.
Re the reverse slants, being an old timer using A Major tuning, I've been playing them since Pontius was a pilot, in fact he was just an air cadet when I was taking Hawaiian guitar lessons in 1948. I hated them because they were had to get accurately with small hands. However, I still teach using them in A Major today. I think all this A Major tuning will drop dead with me!!!!! Keep up the good work folks, I love it.
Geo _________________ http://georgerout.com
"I play in the A Major tuning. It's fun to learn and so easy to play. It's as old as the hills....like me" |
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Stefan Robertson
From: Hertfordshire, UK
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Posted 12 Feb 2017 9:49 pm
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Not sure why reverse or forward slant is more important.
I see them as a technique that is necessary equally and can't get away from nor should you want to.
Example. If I play a C Harmonised scale with triads
You can play it forward or reverse or straight bar.
For me I am learning ALL because I believe in a technique I call "Proximity" instead of using long distances where possible, like Don Helms did, find the chords you need in close proximity. Only move if it is in the wrong octave.
This idea will then mean greater fretboard knowledge, connecting lines and chords and although is tons of work I'm sure if I live long enough will pay off. _________________ Stefan
Bill Hatcher custom 12 string Lap Steel Guitar
E13#9/F secrets: https://thelapsteelguitarist.wordpress.com
"Give it up for The Lap Steel Guitarist" |
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Andy Volk
From: Boston, MA
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Posted 13 Feb 2017 3:23 am
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Good one, David! _________________ Steel Guitar Books! Website: www.volkmediabooks.com |
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David M Brown
From: California, USA
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Posted 13 Feb 2017 7:41 am
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Thank you for all the great replies!
Since this forum cannot multi-quote, I'll have to add a few posts..... |
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David M Brown
From: California, USA
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Posted 13 Feb 2017 7:43 am
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Mike Neer wrote: |
I've spent enough time with all the tunings to see their usefulness/limitations. C6 still seems to be the one with the most hidden surprises. |
I'm curious if you think C6 has any more surprises than A6?
I mean both with E on top, the C6 w/ G on top is just a transposed A6. |
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David M Brown
From: California, USA
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Posted 13 Feb 2017 7:45 am
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Andy Volk wrote: |
Thanks for the visual evidence, gents. It would have been interesting to have film of the earliest players and I agree that some advanced techniques were likely not shared in teaching methods. |
Especially since the amateur home self teaching methods often were for a solo style arrangement rather than the more single-line and chord approach of the real professionals. |
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David M Brown
From: California, USA
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Posted 13 Feb 2017 7:48 am
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George Rout wrote: |
Re the reverse slants, being an old timer using A Major tuning, I've been playing them since Pontius was a pilot, in fact he was just an air cadet when I was taking Hawaiian guitar lessons in 1948. I hated them because they were had to get accurately with small hands. However, I still teach using them in A Major today. I think all this A Major tuning will drop dead with me!!!!! |
I still play some A low and high bass on acoustic steel.
Since I play a lot of A6 on electrics, much of the same stuff from the older A tunings can be done on the top strings of the A6 tuning. I suppose this is why I like A6 somewhat more than C6. |
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David M Brown
From: California, USA
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Posted 13 Feb 2017 7:50 am
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Stefan Robertson wrote: |
For me I am learning ALL because I believe in a technique I call "Proximity" ....find the chords you need in close proximity. Only move if it is in the wrong octave.
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I like to do this too, rather than jump a good distance on the fingerboard - unless that is the effect I want. But if I can get the notes I need very close by, using slants, I'd rather do so for phrasing reasons.
Some of the books have both staff notation and TAB, often I see them jump rather than use a close-by slant. I wonder if it was done for reasons of phrasing or for easy bar work? |
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Doug Beaumier
From: Northampton, MA
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Posted 13 Feb 2017 8:04 am
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Quote: |
...often I see them jump rather than use a close-by slant. I wonder if it was done for reasons of phrasing or for easy bar work? |
I think some beginner books avoid slants and they choose to move the bar up the fretboard instead. That's fine for a week-one beginner, but I have discovered that students really want to learn to slant. They are fascinated by it and they want to learn the technique. So I introduce them to forward slants fairly early. Reverse slants take a little more time to master... moving the thumb to the rear of the bar and pushing it forward. _________________ My Site / My YouTube Channel
25 Songs C6 Lap Steel / 25 MORE Songs C6 Lap Steel / 16 Songs, C6, A6, B11 / 60 Popular Melodies E9 Pedal Steel |
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David M Brown
From: California, USA
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Posted 13 Feb 2017 8:42 am
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Doug Beaumier wrote: |
I have discovered that students really want to learn to slant. They are fascinated by it and they want to learn the technique. So I introduce them to forward slants fairly early. Reverse slants take a little more time to master... moving the thumb to the rear of the bar and pushing it forward. |
You sound like a great and fun teacher. |
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