Are 12 string Universal Pedal Steels popular these days?

Steve Gabler · Post by **Steve Gabler** » 11 Jan 2017 8:40 am

I am wanting to know if a Carter 12 string Universal holds its value like other steel guitars that are selling these days. Are they easy to sell if I want to change to an S-10? Thanks!

Larry Phleger · Post by **Larry Phleger** » 11 Jan 2017 9:29 am

I have owned a Carter U12 for over 15 years. It has been an extremely dependable guitar with great sound and it stays in tune better than anything I have ever owned. A guitar like the one I own currently sells for about the same as I paid for mine.

Steve Gabler · Post by **Steve Gabler** » 11 Jan 2017 9:37 am

Thanks Larry! I am thinking about buying one. What whould you think a Carter 12 string (black) in average condition (some scratches here and there) is worth? I am going to look at it today. I am guessing $1200-$1400.What do you think?

Tom Campbell · Post by **Tom Campbell** » 11 Jan 2017 10:35 am

Think more in terms of $1750 -$1800 for a Carter U12.

Steve Gabler · Post by **Steve Gabler** » 11 Jan 2017 10:53 am

Thanks so much Tom!

Lane Gray · Post by **Lane Gray** » 11 Jan 2017 12:09 pm

It'll hold its value, will take a bit longer to sell

Steve Gabler · Post by **Steve Gabler** » 11 Jan 2017 3:19 pm

Thanks! Thats what I wanted to know. I went to look at the Carter today and It looked ok. I printed out a chart to see if the knee levers went with the chart... The knee levers did not change pitch on all of the strings like the chart showed. Is this normal?

Jon Light · Post by **Jon Light** » 11 Jan 2017 3:29 pm

If you are saying that the guitar is not consistent with the chart of this guitar that the seller is providing, I'd want to know why.
But if you are saying that it does not comply with a generic chart you found online...I would venture to say that there are more guitars with variations on the setup than there are with 'standard' changes.
Yes, there is a rough standard but no, there's too much independent thinking to find too many guitars that are absolutely stock 'standard'. Close, yes, but little stuff....there's room for a lot of personalization.
(Someone might say that I'm wrong re: there being more non-standard guitars....so I took some license. Sue me).

Jon Light · Post by **Jon Light** » 11 Jan 2017 3:32 pm

I strongly suggest that you learn how to do stuff underneath the guitar. It is rewarding and it is just good to perform your own maintenance. Among my guitars is a Carter 12 and it has quirks that are good to know but it is a fine guitar. Plenty of help right here when you need it.

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 11 Jan 2017 4:30 pm

Well, it probably won't lose much value...if its priced right, but you should take into consideration that Uni's probably make up less than five or ten percent of the PSG market, so it won't appeal to as many players as a ten-stringer.

Lane Gray · Post by **Lane Gray** » 11 Jan 2017 5:50 pm

Stephen Gabler wrote:Thanks! Thats what I wanted to know. I went to look at the Carter today and It looked ok. I printed out a chart to see if the knee levers went with the chart... The knee levers did not change pitch on all of the strings like the chart showed. Is this normal?

This is not likely to be a problem, as long as most of the levers on the guitar look familiar. If it's missing some, no worries.
If it's close to normal, just start learning on it.
Unless a guitar is just plain weird, I STRONGLY advocate newbies learn on what they have, and only make changes once they understand what they're missing in the lever they want to add, and understand what they're giving up by making the change.

Jerry Overstreet · Post by **Jerry Overstreet** » 11 Jan 2017 6:32 pm

There are probably more Universal players out there than people realize. I would guess the S10 is the most popular followed by D10, then S12. Some people like a 12 string extended E9th tuning which really just adds two more strings on the bottom.

Posted here on b0b's links pages are some common Universal tunings: http://b0b.com/wp/?page_id=690

Also from the old Carter website: http://steelguitar.com/sampleS12Tuning.html

I would suggest you stay with one of these even if you have to make a few changes. I've seen some really messed up guitars with illogical setups that make the guitar hard to play. This can lead to frustration and lack of interest. JMO.

We might be able to tell you more if you can post the current set-up on this guitar.

Bobby D. Jones · Post by **Bobby D. Jones** » 11 Jan 2017 9:05 pm

Hi Stephen. There is 3 different 12 string tunings for a steel guitar. UNIVERSAL, Extended E9th and Extended C6. Then varations of these. For Universal alone there is tunings by Jeff Newman, Sierra, Excel, BMI, Franklin and GFI surf the net will give you many different setups.

If pedals do not work check to see if it has bell cranks and pull rods in place. Many who are not using a pedal or lever will back the nylon tuning nut off so if they hit the pedal or lever by mistake nothing will happen. Good Luck in your venture.

Ken Metcalf · Post by **Ken Metcalf** » 12 Jan 2017 7:59 am

A 12 string in split cases is nice and light to haul around.
If you want to play a little 6th stuff without lugging a D-10.

Ian Rae · Post by **Ian Rae** » 12 Jan 2017 8:27 am

Ken is spot on - that's why I converted. My D10 is basic so I could bring all my changes with me. I guess if you have a really loaded twin-neck you'd have to make compromises, but I didn't.

Larry Phleger · Post by **Larry Phleger** » 12 Jan 2017 11:43 am

If you are planning to work on a Carter, remember that the bell crank shafts are hollow. This means that you should be careful not to over tighten the set screws on the puller. Carter warns against this in the literature they sent with their new instruments.

Mike Perlowin · Post by **Mike Perlowin** » 12 Jan 2017 11:47 am

Lane Gray wrote:
Unless a guitar is just plain weird, I STRONGLY advocate newbies learn on what they have, and only make changes once they understand what they're missing in the lever they want to add, and understand what they're giving up by making the change.

I agree 100% This is some of the best advise for newbies I've seen on this forum.

Right on Lane.

Ollin Landers · Post by **Ollin Landers** » 12 Jan 2017 12:13 pm

I have both a Carter S-12 and a Zum SD-12. Both have an identical setup with very minor differences. One has splits on 6 the other on 5.

I paid a little less than the avg price for my Carter and it was in excellent shape. I'm watching the value go up every year.

I'm with Ken and Ian. I have never owned a D-10. I play 80% E9 and occasionally play some C6. But I have the added advantage of the lower 2 strings when I need to play some rock riffs without switching necks.

When I have the occasion to play an S-10 or D-10 the problem is not the copedent as much as it is the 12 strings. It takes me awhile to shift from 12 to 10 and hit the right strings. And there's always the "whoa" I can't do that on an S-10.

Ian Rae · Post by **Ian Rae** » 13 Jan 2017 3:33 pm

Mike Perlowin wrote:
Lane Gray wrote: Unless a guitar is just plain weird, I STRONGLY advocate newbies learn on what they have, and only make changes once they understand what they're missing in the lever they want to add, and understand what they're giving up by making the change.
I agree 100% This is some of the best advise for newbies I've seen on this forum.

I thoroughly agree. My first guitar was a D10 set up with Day E9 pedals and the C6 ordered 85674. It had one lever lowering 2 & 9 on the E9. I didn't know how much any of this mattered or what to do about it so I just got stuck in. The result was that I learned basics without distraction.

I did add more levers later, but not until I understood why I needed them and how to fit them.

Mike Ester · Post by **Mike Ester** » 14 Jan 2017 10:25 am

Got an '05 Carter S12U. I like it a lot.

Let's see... 87lb D10 or 31lb Uni? Hmm...tough choice.

Tim Brady · Post by **Tim Brady** » 14 Jan 2017 3:18 pm

I've had an S12 Carter 7/5 set up to a variant of an E9 Extended for many years. It has a George L on it. It is completely reliable, just never has issues. It stays in tune like a dream, just perfect in that way. Seems to play easy, re pulls etc. The tone...well I sort of envy the guys with the Sho buds, and Emmons and the like. I can just never get my guitar to have the sweet, flowery, rich tone that they get so often. It sound "stringy," or if I don't watch out even shrill or tinny. Bobby Cox helped me out with my amp settings, and I got a whole lot of improvement. Maybe the tone is in my hands, but I still cannot get that really sweet sound that some good players get.

Mike Perlowin · Post by **Mike Perlowin** » 14 Jan 2017 3:30 pm

Tim Brady wrote: ...if I don't watch out (it can sound)n even shrill or tinny.

A graphic or parametric EQ might not give you the sound you want, but it would tame the shrillness.

Alan Simon · Post by **Alan Simon** » 14 Jan 2017 3:47 pm

Try another pickup. Sure made mine sound better. Truetone or Alumitone.

Bob Hoffnar · Post by **Bob Hoffnar** » 14 Jan 2017 5:08 pm

if you want to play an S10 get an S10. A U12 is a different beast. The trade offs between a U 12 and S 10'are significant. The U12 suits many players but does not have the elegance of a simple E9 tuned S10 steel. That is why the market for S10 giutars is so much more active.

My advice if you are just getting started is keep it simple and start with an S10. Once you get going a bit you can see what suits you.

Mark van Allen · Post by **Mark van Allen** » 14 Jan 2017 6:12 pm

They are (popular) with meâ€¦

I agree with Bob on beginners looking at 10 strings, especially if classic country or americana is your bag. Resale, relative ease of setup, weight, and other factors all support that choice.

I only wish I'd not been discouraged from exploring the U12 direction when I first wanted to move beyond E9. Apart from fully chromatic chord subs/extensions, the U12 has everything I need from E9 and C6 tunings, with the freedom and fun of morphing from one to the other, and a whole LOT of stuff to explore into my dotage. So hip.

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