Rant: no more singers.

[Mike Perlowin]

Jeff, I don't do both because I don't want to.

Why are you being so negative about this? Do you feel threatened? Do you feel everybody has to have the same opinions and goals as you? Do you feel there is no room for anybody with a different perspective?

I'm doing my thing. I'm not saying you or anybody else should do the same thing. I do what I do. I'm not getting rich, but I do get restaurant gigs and occasionally give concerts like the one I'm giving on December 28

http://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=309878

Why does this bother you so much?

I suggest that before you respond, you visit the web sites in my signature and check out my work. There are all studio recordings, and are not exactly the same as what I do when I play live, but you can get hear what I've already done, and get an idea of how I might play live.

[Barry Blackwood]

How about bagpipe jazz?!?!

[b0b]

We deliberately targeted Wine Country Swing at restaurants and wineries. We play background music. While maybe 2/3 of our songs have vocals, it's often just one vocal verse at the end of a tune. Most of our music is instrumental.

We averaged 2 or 3 gigs a month this year.

I'm not sure if anyone mentioned this: playing instrumentals is more work than backing a singer. It's harder to do well. Sometimes I look at it as "more challenging", but there's no denying that it leaves me drained at the end of a 3 hour gig. Country gigs where you just play the intro, fills, and a solo now and then are a lot easier.

[Rick Abbott]

How about bagpipe jazz?!?!

I refer to this instrument as a "Fleabag Pipe." My cat, Hebrew Melvin, has great tone!

I play few instrumentals; playing behind a singer is what I prefer. Having said that, I also prefer to back a civilized human being. My gripe with singers is the fact that a percentage of them are narcissistic and hard to work with. Late to practice, unhappy with some aspect of the stage, venue or their hair. It's just how front-folk are. It's no big deal to me...usually.

[Jim Fogarty]

Jeff, I don't do both because I don't want to.

Why are you being so negative about this? Do you feel threatened? Do you feel everybody has to have the same opinions and goals as you? Do you feel there is no room for anybody with a different perspective?

I'm doing my thing. I'm not saying you or anybody else should do the same thing. I do what I do. I'm not getting rich, but I do get restaurant gigs and occasionally give concerts like the one I'm giving on December 28

http://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=309878

Why does this bother you so much?

I suggest that before you respond, you visit the web sites in my signature and check out my work. There are all studio recordings, and are not exactly the same as what I do when I play live, but you can get hear what I've already done, and get an idea of how I might play live.

Sorry it seemed that way to you. Not negative, bothered or threatened in the least. In fact, as I said multiple times, if it works for you, great! You're a terrific player who should be doing what he wants.

No, this had spun off a bit into a conversation about gigs and opportunities to gig, instrumentally, and I was giving my (professional)perspective on the dirth of strictly instro gigs out there these days. I'm looking at it as a guy who needs to perform 2, 3 or 4 times a week to pay my bills. Obviously, you're in a different position. Again, I'm sorry if my perspective offended you.

Considering that you misquoted me about playing bars......misunderstood the tone of my comments.....AND got my name wrong (who's Jeff!?!), I'd say we're just having a failure to communicate. It happens.

No harm, no foul......and I hope your gig goes great on the 28th.

- Jim

[Bob Blair]

What b0b says about instrumentals being more work is my experience as well. I think most anyone who has put together a set for a steel show will attest to that. Arrangements don't just happen - at least not for most of us.

[Tony Prior]

What b0b says about instrumentals being more work is my experience as well. I think most anyone who has put together a set for a steel show will attest to that. Arrangements don't just happen - at least not for most of us.

'Zactly...

Even when you play 2 or 3 at a Dance, it's the same thing, of course on a smaller scale.

It's not a free ride, it's work . We are the band leader, director and arranger when we play an Instrumental at gigs or shows . Oh yeah, we have to actually play it too !

[Steve Spitz]

It depends on the singer,and the situation.

If youre fortunate enough to work with a fantastic, professional vocalist , its a great pleasure to contribute to the total effort.

The instrumentalists contribution to the ensemble package is enough for me , when youre making great music.

I find following a great vocalist with my solo a great opportunity. It inspires me.

On the other hand, Ive also played with some really embarassing hacks. Im a nobody, but if the band isnt strong, and the Vocalist is weak,unprofessional, or otherwise annoying , I dont find it musically rewarding enough to take the gig. It takes all the fun out of it, and it just isnt worth it.

My Dad is an opera buff. Im not. His view is the vocalist is an instrumentalist, but the instrument is the voice.

[Mike Perlowin]

First, Jim, I apologize for getting your name wrong and misinterpreting your posts. You would nor believe how much crap I've gotten, mostly from singer/songwriters who think the world revolves around them, and I'm here on this planet to service them.

We have all played behind great and (to say the least) not so great singers, and yes, when you get somebody who it truly gifted, it's a pleasure to work with them. I was fortunate enough to play for a couple of years with one of the best singers in So. California: a man named Bobby Cahill. It was a wonderful experience. I'm glad I did it.

Bobby stopped singing in clubs 30 years ago and got a straight job. He is now retired, and has some serious health problems, but he and I are still friends, and he and the guy who played lead in our band attended one of concerts and one of my restaurant gigs, and are planning to attend my December 28 show.

[Pete Burak]

Mike, You should be playing on some Steel shows. Have you ever played the Phoenix show?

[Jim Cohen]

Sure he did. Several of us even backed him up on... (wait for it)... VOCALS!

[b0b]

Sure he did. Several of us even backed him up on... (wait for it)... VOCALS!

I cringe every time I think of that.

[Mike Perlowin]

I sang at the show, and Jim was one of my background singers.

I sang G L O R I A and Jim and Tommy Dodd and Scotty and our fearless leader b0b and several others
(AKA "the Mike-ettes,) joined me on stage and responded by singing "Gloria."

Long live rock and roll.

I also played a classical piece, "Reverie" by Claude Debussy. Here's a link to one of several videos of the piece. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vKd0qaRi1Yk

Try to picture it played on a steel. It works beautifully. But I had to read the sheet music in order to learn it.

I also played the old Frankie Avalon song "Venus." Now I was able to figure out most of it by ear, but there was one chord that threw me off. I looked up the sheet music, and saw what it was. Once I knew that, playing it was no problem. But again, I had to read the sheet music in order to learn it.

Once again. I have to get on my soap box and advocate that you guys learn how to read music, and mention that I wrote an article on how to do it, which I will send for free to anybody who requests it.

Please E-mail me rather than send me a PM so I can attach the file to the response.

[Mike Perlowin]

Sure he did. Several of us even backed him up on... (wait for it)... VOCALS!

I cringe every time I think of that.

Now b0b, you know you secretly loved being a Mike-ette. It was one of your guilty pleasures. (Mine is watching dumb monster movies from the 50s like The Brain That Couldn't Die and Zontar, the thing from Venus. )

Many decades from now, when you are on your death-bed and reflecting on your life, you will realize that being Mike-ette was a once in a lifetime experience, and you'll be grateful for having done it.

[Tom Gorr]

I have strong opinions on the subject as well.

Most singers are essentially building personal brand value as a business model and regard the musicians around them as employees that better darn well accept their position in the natural order of things. The great irony, and some might say justice or karma of that attitude is that singers fail to live up to their potential when they fail to fully appreciate and engage the talent around them at a higher level.

They are not all like that... just most of them. You have to know what you want, what band situation you are prepared to invest in, and proceed according to principles that make sense to you as an instrumentalist.

Just as in regular business, it takes some bad experiences to see the red flags early and cut short your losses... and if you don't have the Emotional Intelligence to recognize the truth of it it will ultimately just twist you in half.

There is not a lot of permanence or tangibles that will come from playing music...when the last note of the last song decays.. there is nothing left but a quickly fading memory of the event and the late night drive home. It is mostly what I refer to as transient activity. It is what it is. .. to expect some deep existential truth from a gig is folly. At a point the only tangible aspect of a gig is the gig pay jingling in your jeans... so make sure that is enough to make it worthwhile.

Doing studio work does have various possibilities for permanence no matter how irrelevant it may be to the larger world. There is at least a personal record of a personal contribution.... permanence has more possibilities toward long term satisfaction.

Overall, I think music and the bands that make it needs to be mostly about sincere social relationships. If there is an overriding business model that undermines the social integrity of the band relationship, a singer will not have deep enough pockets to attract me.

[Herb Steiner]

I have strong opinions on the subject as well.

Most singers are essentially building personal brand value as a business model and regard the musicians around them as employees that better darn well accept their position in the natural order of things. The great irony, and some might say justice or karma of that attitude is that singers fail to live up to their potential when they fail to fully appreciate and engage the talent around them at a higher level.

They are not all like that... just most of them. You have to know what you want, what band situation you are prepared to invest in, and proceed according to principles that make sense to you as an instrumentalist.

Just as in regular business, it takes some bad experiences to see the red flags early and cut short your losses... and if you don't have the Emotional Intelligence to recognize the truth of it it will ultimately just twist you in half.

There is not a lot of permanence or tangibles that will come from playing music...when the last note of the last song decays.. there is nothing left but a quickly fading memory of the event and the late night drive home. It is mostly what I refer to as transient activity. It is what it is. .. to expect some deep existential truth from a gig is folly. At a point the only tangible aspect of a gig is the gig pay jingling in your jeans... so make sure that is enough to make it worthwhile.

Doing studio work does have various possibilities for permanence no matter how irrelevant it may be to the larger world. There is at least a personal record of a personal contribution.... permanence has more possibilities toward long term satisfaction.

Overall, I think music and the bands that make it needs to be mostly about sincere social relationships. If there is an overriding business model that undermines the social integrity of the band relationship, a singer will not have deep enough pockets to attract me.

Two observations that Tom's post above brought to mind...

I once had the opportunity to work with a fellow many among us would consider a major country singer... one of the biggest, in fact..., albeit from the past. He scheduled a rehearsal at 4pm for that evening's show. He showed up an hour late, was inebriated, cut everything short and was gone in 15 minutes. At show time, he was even drunker and proceded to screw up every song, and then bad-mouthed the band over the microphone to the audience.

On the opposite side, I recently saw Tony Bennett play to a packed house in San Antonio. At 90 years old, he was spry, sang in great voice, and most importantly he was incredibly generous with praise and affection for his musicians.

Class is difficult to be obtained or learned later in life. You either have it, or you don't. And it doesn't take long to discover who does and who does not.

[Ray Harrison]

I have been attending shows, and singing at the steel shows, since 1990. I interpret my job at a steel show to work with the steel player, not to be the star of the show.
If I'm playing a job with a band, I believe that my job is to do songs that will give the band a chance to sound best to the customers and to dance to. Certainly, from time to time I wish to stand out, but, I always give the band the same opportunity.
t the steel shows, that's what it is. Let the Steel Player shine.

[Alan W. Black]

Over the years I've come to the conclusion the vocalist is in a bit of a jam without the instrumental soloist. There's a partnership there. Page/Plant, Gill/Franklin. If the spotlight shifts to the soloist, even for a brief fill or a verse& chorus, it creates a opportunity for the vocalist to make a dramatic re-entry. And vice verse. It can be chilling to see this back and forth live. Some pop vocalists are stuck singing from start to finish without a break. They need that yin/yang relationship.

[Fred Treece]

Over the years I've come to the conclusion the vocalist is in a bit of a jam without the instrumental soloist. There's a partnership there. Page/Plant, Gill/Franklin. If the spotlight shifts to the soloist, even for a brief fill or a verse& chorus, it creates a opportunity for the vocalist to make a dramatic re-entry. And vice verse. It can be chilling to see this back and forth live. Some pop vocalists are stuck singing from start to finish without a break. They need that yin/yang relationship.

Someone referred to "entertainment" earlier. Alan's post (and a few others) describes what it can be when the voice, lyric, melody, and instrumental support are perfectly aligned. Confidence opens up a lot of possubilities. The singer may be the focus for the audience, but the singer knows they are more effective when their show is played off of a great band with great songs.

Vince Gill would still have been good if his band played trash cans. Luckily for the world, he got the best musicians possible instead.

In terms of strictly instrumental tunes, every once in a while I listen to the 40's channel on SiriusXM. This is when instrumental and vocal tunes were maybe equally popular. It seems most of these tunes feature one instrument for an A part, followed by a horn section outburst, then another instrument on the B part, the horn section on the Chorus and maybe a piano on the bridge, or some such arrangement. This is entertaining for the average listener, interesting for the critical listener, and artistic for both. Sometimes a single instrument is featured from start to finish, but dotted with orchestral interludes.

Is this all in the interest of appeasing the audience? I don't think so, but, what good is appeasing the muse and showcasing chops unless the audience "gets it"? Maybe that is the real art of instrumental music.

I would go see Mike's show. My wife would go too, but she would be thinking about groceries or shoes for most of it.

[Mike Perlowin]

I would go see Mike's show. My wife would go too, but she would be thinking about groceries or shoes for most of it.

My next scheduled performance is Wednesday, July 26. I'll post the details as the date approaches.

[Tony Prior]

Revived thread ! revived topic.

While I totally get Mikes point of view as well as others lets just remind ourselves that we are supposed to be musicians. It doesn't much matter if we play Steel guitars or Ukulele's.

Overall it appears to me that if someone wants or desires to be a soloist playing only Instrumentals, then go for it. BUT, to assume that ALL singers are BAD and are the root of that decision is something that I don't get. A singer who is the leader of the band and hires players, well, isn't that what we are, players ? Don't take the gig !

I find great satisfaction and reward with backing other artists, be they singers, guitar players etc... I find great balance with being able to match whatever skill set I may obtain with another musician or musicians, the music conversation is rewarding, even If we are the only ones who recognize it.

And yes there are many singers, guitar players or harmonica players where they were absolute control freaks but they are the exception rather than the rule.

If it wasn't for Hank Sr . or the likes of Buck or Merle etc, many of us would never have even heard a Steel guitar. If it wasn't for Jimmy and Buddy playing behind Ray or Lloyd with Charlie, many of us wouldn't have even dove into this pond on the deep end !



It's all good according to what WE want to do personally. Play only Instrumentals without singers , play in bands with singers or put yourself in my position, I get to play Steel, Tele and sing but when I sing holding the Tele I am always wishing I could hear some Steel guitar behind me , I back up all the others but I get gypped ! No Steel behind me on the songs I sing when I'm on guitar , and no I don't want to put the Tele down !

[Charlie McDonald]

There was was thread here recently about a steel guitar club whose meeting was overrun with vocalists who thought that their singing was the way for a steel player to showcase his/her abilities...

... when clearly they're there to showcase their own abilities inappropriately, just because there are some musicians handy.
Some singers are musicians, some are there to blow their noses and the band is the Kleenex.

Because after all, they are the true artists. We are merely their servants.

Sarcasm aside, the singer is usually the artist people come to see (except for steel shows; whose idea was that?).
The song has been around a long time before the instrument, and is the vehicle for popular music. We serve the music.

Best bands I've been in had female vocalists who understood music. The vocal is the thread for me to follow.
The audience is mostly there to hear the words. And if it weren't for the vocals, I couldn't sing backup!

I must admit, if Willie Nelson or John Fogerty wanted to hire me, I'd take the gig.

Ah ha!

[Mike Perlowin]

\It's all good according to what WE want to do personally.

Precisely. And I personally choose not to play behind singers. I'm not telling anybody else to do the same.

Apparently this makes some folks very uncomfortable.

[Charlie McDonald]

Not as uncomfortable as a steel show with singers lining up for open mic.

[Barry Blackwood]

Not as uncomfortable as a steel show with singers lining up for open mic.

Or a sale on summer sandals..