Tuning string 7 in E9

John Goux · From: California, USA

I'd like to hear how you tune your F# String 7 in E9.
Since it applies, you might mention which tuning system you use.

Yes, I did a search for Str 7 and there is nothing specific. Obviously there are miles discussions about intonation.

I use a tuning system posted on Buddy Emmons website on all my guitars. This is a very harmonious sounding, and works well on my guitars that have substantial cab drop. I have no idea how Buddy arrived at it. I'll try to post it.
The E's, B's and D are straight up 440, 0 cents offset. G# -.11. C# -.17. C pedal is F# -22 and C# -17.

String 7 is tuned -.15. This puts it nicely in tune as the root of the BC minor chord(consonant with string 4 an octave higher), and as the 4th degree in A/F major inversion. It is tweaky but passable as the 6th degree in pedals down.

The worst is open position where the 2nd degree F# is way flat, at -15.

I'm using that open F# more lately. I've tried compromising -15 up to -11, -8 and up to 0. The only thing that sounds good is zero(for open) and -15 for the BC minor with string 4. Splitting the difference gets you neither sounding in tune.

I'm currently on a Williams 12 with near zero drop with AB. The open F# is becoming a priority over the BC minor chord root. It would appear I need to make a choice which is more important.

It is a simple question, how do you tune your F# string 7?
Also, how many of you use compensator mechanisms, and is this possible on all guitars? Does it effect tone?

Thanks, John

Lane Gray · From: Topeka, KS

The multitude of F#s was one of the factors that drove me to simplify my tuning chart. I now tune everything to ET, with the exceptions of G#, A#, C#, D# and E#, which go 4 cents flat.
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Jeff Harbour · From: Western Ohio, USA

For me it is near -15 for strings 1 & 7 (relative to the E's).

I have recently been frustrated about the same thing. I tried and really liked the F#'s set to 0 when playing non-pedal chords on the E9, sounds very clean. But, it rendered useless the AB-down 2 minor 7th chord, which I use alot. So, I put them back to where they are pure for that chord. From there, if I play the non-pedal open chords (high 5-chord, or a low 5m-chord) I compensate with slight bar slants.

I've done that ever since I got rid of the C-Pedal (a controversial move, I know)... Before that, I tuned 1 & 7 to -7.5 (half-way).

Earnest Bovine · From: Los Angeles CA USA

Trying to get the F# to sound good with both B and C# is what led me to meantone tuning. You can't get the F# to be in tune with both the B and the C#, with perfect beatless 5ths. [here omitting a digression on Pythagorean tuning, perfect 5th intervals, and the horrible 3rd intervals that result, which is why nobody has used it since Pythgoras passed away] So I tune it halfway between.

Most players prefer to tune a few intervals/chords to be as pure (beatless) as possible, and then avoid using the other intervals altogether. For example Jay Dee Maness tunes his F# strings low, but he would avoid playing B and F# together. Other players have a nice interval between B and F#, but avoid playing F# and C# together.

The Emmons tuning chart that you posted uses a different compromise: String 1 F# is tuned high and sounds good with B but not with F#. String 7 F# is tuned low and sounds good with C# but not with B. Also, that chart's average pitch is very low. It would sound flat against a piano. If I were to use it, I would raise everything 10 cents or so to get it closer to the rest of the band when using open strings.

The "compensator" you ask about is another solution, but imperfect. It would lower the F# few cents when the B string is raised to C#. That solves many problems and allow you to tune to purer intervals (slower beats) but causes new problems with some combinations. I use that on some of my guitars.

Mike Perlowin · From: Los Angeles CA

Paul Sutherland · From: Placerville, California

Currently I tune the seventh string to straight up concert pitch F#. The minor chord with the A & B pedals down sounds a little off if you are playing by yourself, but it sounds fine when playing with a group or to a track. If you tune the seventh string flat it is noticeably off for any use except that minor chord. An out of tune major triad is much more noticeable than an out of tune minor chord.

I have tried using compensators, as described by others, but I always end up taking them off as my steels work better without them. If I could make them work properly I would definitely use a compensator on that string.
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Ian Rae · From: Redditch, England

Jeff Harbour · From: Western Ohio, USA

Brint Hannay · From: Maryland, USA

It appears that tuning chart is the "Emmons Guitar Company" chart, not Buddy Emmons's chart.
There's considerable information here on the Forum that Buddy tuned quite differently from that chart, at least later on in his career. He himself said that he tuned ET, or close to it.

Some discussion of this in this thread from 2003:
http://steelguitarforum.com/Forum5/HTML/005302.html

Bruce Derr · From: Lee, New Hampshire, USA

I tune both 1 and 7 to -8 cents, or if I don't have a tuner connected I listen for about the same beat rate against B and C#. Never tried compensators, maybe someday.

When touching up tuning I generally tune all strings with B pedal down to put cab drop somewhere in the middle of its range.

Jerry Overstreet · From: Louisville Ky

Compensator. I tune the 7th string to 0 on the meter, then tweak the pedals down tuning beatless or until it sounds in tune with the other strings. I don't really know what the reading is, but it's not flatted much.

If you put a comp rod in the easiest, longest pull it shouldn't affect your feel at all. I don't notice it at all. It just doesn't need a lot of detuning.

I also have a 6th string truing comp on the same pedal [A], same pull train.

Jim Reynolds · From: Franklin, Pa 16323

I tune my 1st and 7th string to Newman's and Emmons tuning. It was brought out in 86. 441.5 hz
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John Goux · From: California, USA

Earnest.
Is there something inherent in the stretched tuning of a piano that would make it sound out of tune? Or are you simply saying that the band will be around 440 and this Emmons compromise has many flatted strings, and will sound flat to a guitar driven band as well?

How much higher do you recommend? I seem to recall 442 is about 8 cents.

In open position E I should be on the money, but pedals down has you root A at -7. Seems like you have to choose which open chord you want with the band.

I do find myself with the bar to the right of the fret markers often.

Tuning that middle F# string up to 0 has a few downsides. The 4th degree of the scale sounds sharp on your A/F major chord. Your open D major chord will not have a compensated 3rd. There are probably more. But I'm enjoying having the Str 7 open F# in tune for now.

John

Jamie Mitchell · From: Nashville, TN

i tune F#s straight up, 9/8 (close enough for rock n roll), and use compensators to lower them to 10/9.
i tune everything just, strings, pedals + levers.

the first time i really ran into that problem of 2 was when i was using a lap steel tuning for the Kaki King tune Gay Sons of Lesbian Mothers. i had a steel dedicated to that tune, tuning was F G A C D E, low to hi. so, less than an octave in the whole tuning. loved that sound, but the comma on that G drove me ****ing crazy. can't remember how i resolved that, it's been a while, but i ended up running into it again on lap steel, in C6. i tune the top string down to D. once again, the comma appeared. my current solution to that is to tune C6 straight up ET, although the 3rds pain me... all my other steel/slide tunings i do just.

anyways, the problem of 2, commas, rambling...

j

Jamie Mitchell · From: Nashville, TN

John Goux · From: California, USA

Regarding the photo of the tuning system...

You can see in the menu bar it says BuddyEmmions.com which is where I found it. Maybe linked to the Emmons company website. But I have to assume this is a BE approved solution, since it is on his site.

Buddy changed many things over the course of his career. Tuning was probably one of them. I've read people say, he didn't sound as in tune later on, when he claimed he was tuning straight up. I would not know.

I tried Newman and the Peterson presets and they did not work for me. This BE system did, on a guitar with substantial cabinet drop. I've continued to use it on other guitars with much less drop, and it still works relatively well for me, albeit these instances of diads that will not be in tune.
I spend some time on pitch every time I sit down to practice. And I'm open to suggestions for a better tuning system.
John

Jim Reynolds · From: Franklin, Pa 16323

Not sure what all tuning your using. I have used the Newman since 1986, when he finally brought it out. It was studied for along time, and Buddy was one that was involved. I have all their write up on it. I have used it and it has always sounded great, and I've had many guitars. It put the steel in tune with all the other instruments, not just with it's self. You can get this tuning at Jeffran web site. This is always a sore spot for the forum, and will go on for days. Just play what ever suits you.
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b0b · From: Cloverdale, CA, USA

I tune both F# strings to 0. All of the other strings and pedals are sharp or flat of that. It's the center of my tuning.

Also, I don't have any changes on my 7th string, so it's always a good indicator of temperature-based detuning.
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Jeff Harbour · From: Western Ohio, USA

Earnest Bovine · From: Los Angeles CA USA

Earnest Bovine · From: Los Angeles CA USA

Paul Sutherland · From: Placerville, California

Tuning a PSG is an exercise in compromises. You should experiment until you find the compromise that works the best for you and enables you to play the most in-tune.
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Steve Mueller · From: Cincinnati, Ohio, USA

I tune 7 to zero, 1 to +1 cent, 2 mins 2 cents, 3 and 6 minus 2 cents, 4, 5, 8, 9 and 10 plus 1 cent. Tune A and B pedals one at a time to eliminate beats on perfect intervals. I can use almost any pedal or string combination. I do tune F pedal E's to F down 8 cents. I stopped using temperment comps a couple of years ago and never looked back. My Williams steels have 1.5 - 2 cents cabinet drop with A and B pedals. I use a wound 6th which minimizes cabinet drop and helps tuning stability.
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