Is this a real Bill Lawrence 705?

Steve Salvi · From: S.A., Australia

Howdy.
Not sure if this is the correct section.
There's a chap on eBay, who may be a member here, not sure, but he's selling these 705's and says they are vintage OEM from the Sho-bud factory. Thing is, they're black not chrome. Here's a link if anyone can help as I just committed to purchase but then it clicked that it wasn't chrome. Thanks in advance.
https://www.ebay.com.au/ulk/itm/391573190768
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Fender DeVille 410 (modded)
72 Strat, Custom Baritone, 50's Maton F hole, DeGruchy D2..
Too many to list..happens when you have a shop!

Ricky Davis · From: Bertram, Texas USA

Those are Bill Lawrence "805".
Ricky
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Ricky Davis
Email Ricky: sshawaiian2362@gmail.com

Lane Gray · From: Topeka, KS

If you're prone to running in single coil mode, the 805 will have a slight edge, as it'll be a bit thicker.
I'd buy it in a heartbeat.
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2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects

Steve Salvi · From: S.A., Australia

Hey thanks!
This Bill Lawrence story is very confusing. There are so many contradictory stories about black Vs chrome that I'm not sure now if these are actual BL or the clones?
Ricky, I've seen your name pop up a couple of times in the threads I've been looking at, and was wondering if you could fill me in? The whole point of me buying the humbucker is to be quiet under gain situations. If it's gonna squeal like a Banshee like some members have said, there's no point in me fitting it up.
Anyway, thanks for the responses.
Cheers
Steve.
_________________
GFI Ultra S10PU Show Pro Lloyd Green.
Fender DeVille 410 (modded)
72 Strat, Custom Baritone, 50's Maton F hole, DeGruchy D2..
Too many to list..happens when you have a shop!

Ricky Davis · From: Bertram, Texas USA

Steve to me; any and all Bill Lawrence old and new are the best humbucking pickups for the Steel guitar. Like Lane said; the 805 is a little warmer than the 705;mainly cause it wound with more ohms...; so you can't go wrong with BL at all.
Ricky
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Email Ricky: sshawaiian2362@gmail.com

Jerry Overstreet · From: Louisville Ky

Don't know about any black vintage BL '05 series. All I've ever had were the chrome cased ones.

The BL705's from that earlier era were wound at app. 20K ohms. The 805's were about 26K ohms.

I had a few of them. The 805 is really dark. Too dark for me even in the slot of an Emmons p/p.

Patrick Laffrat · From: Gemenos, France

Dean Holman · From: Branson MO

Bill Lawrence and Jzchak both started the company. Jzchak bought out Bill Lawrence in 1984 so yes they were no longer associated at that time but Jzchak owns the Bill Lawrence trademark thus all of the designs, schematics and the same machines that made the older chrome surround pickups. I don't know the whole story or why the split up but it doesn't change the fact that Bill and Jzchak were associated and Jzchak owns the original Bill Lawrence Company. It appears to me that the 705's and the other pickups are made exactly the same with the exception of the black surround instead of the chrome. Bill Lawrence redesigned his pickups and started using the Alnico magnets and a different covering. Bill Lawrence started a new company called WILDE. So both of the Bill Lawrence pickups are available, the one's made by WILDE which is Bill's new company and the ones made by Jzchak who owns Bill Lawrence USA. I have to admit that I haven't played very many guitars that had the older chrome surround 705's but I have played many guitars with the newer 705's and they all sounded great. It's all personal preference and I don't know Jzchak very well. I've talked to him over the phone 2 or 3 times. He and Bill started the company many years ago in Germany before they came to the US. In all fairness, he bought out Bill Lawrence thus he owns the right to make pickups under the Bill Lawrence name. I think Bill's wife Becky still has the WILDE company still in operation. I think the misconception in all of this that people think there was no association between Bill and Jzchak but there was and Jzchak does own the rights to the original Bill Lawrence Company but not WILDE.

Ricky Davis · From: Bertram, Texas USA

Ok reading all the history threads that Patrick posted up; now has me SCRATCHING the hell outta my head...ha..
Jerry has a good point in the Ohms...as the one the ebay listing of this "705" we're talking about; says 20 ohms so that would be in the 705 area not the 26 ohm area Jerry is talking about the 805 being.
I would prefer the 705 ohmage moreso. but no chrome plate around it had me convinced it was the 805 made one; until started reading what Patrick put up...so that's why I now don't really know at all...ha...so New/Old; Original/re-Make ???; I still love bill lawrence though...ha....
(course I play a original sho~bud pickup or one me and Jerry Wallace recommend for the Truetone perfect shobud fit..ha..)
Ba-humbug on humbuckers...ha...

Ricky
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Ricky Davis
Email Ricky: sshawaiian2362@gmail.com

Craig A Davidson · From: Wisconsin Rapids, Wisconsin USA

I have 705's in my Williams and had 705's in my Mullen until a couple weeks ago and they look just like the one on E-Bay.

David Higginbotham · From: Lake Charles, Louisiana, USA

That particular pickup has been listed for a long time on eBay with the price starting at like $200 and progressively lowered over time. This is likely from the era when the Bill Lawrence name was purchased and I've been told these pickups were inferior by some that tried them during that time frame many years ago.

All of the original chrome housing 605, 705, and 805 pickups looked identical. The only way to deferentiate between the three was to check them with a meter. The 605 reads in the 16k range, the 705 from 19k to 20.5k, the 805 in the 26k range and they all sound totally different. I've used all three and like nearly everyone else' opinion, the 705 is the superior pickup.

The current line of Re-issue black surround pickups made today read in the 20k range and are easily identified by the bright red covering on the lead wires. I've compared these new pickups with the original chrome 705's on the same guitars and I've found that the new ones sound better than the originals. Tone is subjective but I find the mids and highs about the same but the new models have a better low end response and just an overall better sound. Many builders obviously have the same opinion as they're being installed as stock pickups on many models.
Dave

Steve Salvi · From: S.A., Australia

Well, thanks for all the responses. I committed to the pickup before really doing my homework. So my bad. I just went and paid for it anyway.
I've also been informed that this unit is wide mount and ShoBud use a narrow mount, but it's advertised as a Sho-Bud pickup, so I don't know whats going on there. Maybe the seller is wrong, but he seemed to know what he was talking about.
Anyway, its shipped already so I'll keep you posted!
Thanks!
Steve
_________________
GFI Ultra S10PU Show Pro Lloyd Green.
Fender DeVille 410 (modded)
72 Strat, Custom Baritone, 50's Maton F hole, DeGruchy D2..
Too many to list..happens when you have a shop!

David Higginbotham · From: Lake Charles, Louisiana, USA

I actually meant to mention that the wide mount pickup isn't a narrow mount shobud pickup in my other posting. That was the first thing I noticed when it showed up on eBay at least 6 months ago or more for the exorbitant initial asking price. Hopefully, it will turn out to be usable for you.
Dave

Jerry Overstreet · From: Louisville Ky

Don't fret. The mounting plate can be swapped out for a narrow mount to fit your 'Bud. I think I have one already made up. If not, I can punch you one out if you need it.

You can PM me after you get it if it's determined you need to change it out. JO.

Steve Salvi · From: S.A., Australia

Thanks everyone. Very Happy

_________________
GFI Ultra S10PU Show Pro Lloyd Green.
Fender DeVille 410 (modded)
72 Strat, Custom Baritone, 50's Maton F hole, DeGruchy D2..
Too many to list..happens when you have a shop!

Patrick Laffrat · From: Gemenos, France

Fred Justice put L705 on some of his steel guitars.
http://www.justicesteelguitars.com/S10.html

Some steel guitars distributors are still selling L705 pick ups.

On the WILDE website there is no L705 pick-up avaible.
http://www.wildepickups.com/Steel_Guitar_Pickups.html

Just a question: who does make "Bill Lawrence L705"?

Larry Hamilton · From: Amarillo,Tx

I THINK I read where Bill Lawrence wound his pu's based on the Henry, I believe it is a measure of resistance, rather than ohms. If I stand corrected that's very cool. Any info will be appreciated by all I'm sure. Thanks.
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Keep pickin', Larry

Bruce Derr · From: Lee, New Hampshire, USA

Some original 705s had black surround. They were available in either black or chrome. This has been talked about in previous posts. Someone even posted an original brochure that mentioned it.

The 705s being sold by that ebay seller appear to be originals. I bought a couple of them from him a while back but have not installed either of them in a guitar yet. They certainly were not the newer reissue, which I also have. The mounting plates on the originals have a smaller corner radius and the cable exits near a corner, instead of at the center of the long side as on the reissues. The mounting plates appear to be molded and are more cleanly made than those on the reissues, which may be cut from sheet stock. The cable on the ones I bought is thin coaxial (Belden, if I remember right) for a 2-wire-only connection. Some originals had the 4-wire output and some, like these, had 2-wire (i.e. single wire plus shield). The pickups I got were slightly dusty/dirty in a manner consistent with something that had been laying around in an old factory for years. (I only say that because I work in an old factory!) My takeaway is that he is selling true original 2-wire black-surround 705s. Considering some of the prices fetched by chrome originals lately, they are a bargain.

The seller mentioned them as possible Sho-Bud or EMCI surplus. I asked him if he had any of the narrow-mount plates that might have accompanied his stash of 705s but he unfortunately has not found any. He sells a lot of surplus original parts for 'Buds, Gretch, and other lines.

I am looking forward to trying one of these old 705s, but I have to say the newer 705 in my Carter S-10 sounds great, and I do like having the 4-wire output so I can do some coil switching.

Jon Light (deceased) · From: Saugerties, NY

It is not important for users (most of us) to have this straight but fwiw, I believe that Bill's pet peeve was the use of resistance (ohms) as a reference rather than inductance (henry's). If you had an afternoon to kill, you could call him up and ask him how many ohms you should have the pickup would to. You could lay the phone of the counter and go off and clean the house. He wouldn't quite be wrapping up his speech when you picked it up again.

I have learned a lesson from the subject of the Lawrence's grievance and the company/name ownership --- you (I) just don't know the whole story and there's no point, as an outsider, in taking sides.
Not being a sitting judge, I will never know (and I don't need to know) the full details of whether Bill made a bad business decision, or he got screwed, or.. what.
So I'll let it be. But it is important that people know who Wilde (the company) is and who Bill Lawrence (the company) is.

Jerry Overstreet · From: Louisville Ky

I wish I could find the old Bill Lawrence spec. sheet I got back around 79/80 or whenever this orig. '05 series came out. I know there is also some print somewhere where Bill talks about the inductance etc. of his pickups.

As I recall, the first BL '05 marketed was a wooden cased 505 as advertised in one of the Steel Guitarist magazines, then the 6,7 and 805 chrome surround pickups.

I'm inclined to believe that Bruce's account of the early black ones is credible although I've never seen a black one either in a brochure or on a guitar back in the early days....but there's a lot of things I've never seen.

The lead wire, etc., characteristics on the one that the seller shows do indeed appear to be the same as the chrome ones.

I did find this old post by John Fabian that shows the inductance numbers that Mr. Bill was known to quote.

Steve Salvi · From: S.A., Australia

Well it's arrived. It looks a like a well made unit. I just broke the plastic wide mount plate trying to get it off. It's stuck on with a solvent based glue. The cable is Belden 8216.
I'll make a plate and get it in. There will be no single coil mode. Sad

_________________
GFI Ultra S10PU Show Pro Lloyd Green.
Fender DeVille 410 (modded)
72 Strat, Custom Baritone, 50's Maton F hole, DeGruchy D2..
Too many to list..happens when you have a shop!

Jerry Overstreet · From: Louisville Ky

This is all seems very strange to me. All the original 705's I ever saw came with both plates and just had the plates attached with the 2 screws...no cement. That would allow the user to select the correct style for the guitar. The screws hold the plate on....there wouldn't be any need for glue?

I'm in communication right now with a gentleman who has one of the current issue 705's and he tells me today that the plate on the one he has is also cemented on.

I don't know what you have, but I hope it works out for you.

David Cubbedge · From: Toledo,Ohio, USA

see my profile pic.....
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Jerry Overstreet · From: Louisville Ky

So Steve, did you get this mounted yet? And if so, what do you think? I'm considering pursuing this avenue. Thanks. JO.

Gino Cecchetto · From: California, USA

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