Is intonation easier with JI than with ET?

Billy McCoy · Post by **Billy McCoy** » 2 Dec 2004 8:30 pm

Interesting threads to say the least...
Lots to think about when tuning.

I too have tried both JI and ET and I do a fair share of session work as well as live.

After hearing my Steel on several recordings with both tunings....it was obvious to me that JI sounded better....
I sound more in tune with the rest of the instruments.

Yes, Most of Nashville tunes JI for the same reason ....and Nashville pickers are the standard by which the rest of the world is measured to some degree.

I have a couple of friends who tune ET...but they are definitely in the minority. ...oddly enough...for them, they sound in tune...as do I when I play.

yes Eric, I agree tune the way you want...and play it like you stole it!!!
I love that!

Night folks,
b

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MSA Millennium D10, Walker Stereo Steel, Stone Tree Custom Tele, LINE 6 Vetta II and POD XT PRO

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 2 Dec 2004 10:23 pm

I read somewhere that a lot of the pianos in Nashville are tuned to meantone.

Tom Olson · Post by **Tom Olson** » 2 Dec 2004 10:34 pm

b0b -- what's meantone?

Jim Peters · Post by **Jim Peters** » 2 Dec 2004 11:43 pm

A question? If you are playing with ET instruments, and you are tuned JI, to be in tune with everybody else, won't you have to play ET? If you're adjusting the bar to be in tune with the band, aren't you really playing ET, regardless of how you originally tune? If you are playing in tune with ET instruments, then doesn't that make you ET also? Am I missing something obvious, or are the JI guys missing it? I tune JP

Reece Anderson · Post by **Reece Anderson** » 3 Dec 2004 6:25 am

A piano would sound horribly out of tune were it to be tuned ET. Pianos are tuned using a "stretch" method, which as I see it....is JI.

Pianos have three strings which are slightly detuned so as to achieve a vibrato effect. Tuning the three strings perfectly together would cancel out the vibrato which provides "compensation" (JI), and allows the piano to sound in tune. Electronic pianos have the built in vibrato so as to disguise the "compensation".

I believe the same tuning principle (JI) should apply to steel guitar in varying degrees relative to the ear of the player. The fact we don't have three strings for every note in our tuning similar to that of a piano, we use our bar for vibrato to create "compensation".

I have yet to see a well known steel player say they tune every string and every pedal and knee lever to ET, and unless they do, it would appear to me their ear agrees with the principals of JI.

Jim Peters · Post by **Jim Peters** » 3 Dec 2004 6:42 am

I could be wrong, but I thought the reason for stretch tuning a piano was to move the played upper notes higher than the harmonics of the lower notes, so they would not compete with one another, not a JI issue at all. But however a piano is tuned, if you adjust your bar to play in tune with it, you are no longer playing in JI or ET or whatever, you are playing in the pianos tuning, whatever it is. That is how I see it. JP

Jim Peters · Post by **Jim Peters** » 3 Dec 2004 6:50 am

Another thought: Let's say you tune 440, the rest of the band tunes a 1/2 step flat. You can claim all day that you tune 440, but the reality is, you play a 1/2 step flat, to be in tune with everyone else.It isn't how you tune, it's how you play that determines if you are JI or ET, unless of course you only play the open strings or pedals, with no bar. JP

Reece Anderson · Post by **Reece Anderson** » 3 Dec 2004 7:34 am

Jim....Are you then of the belief you will sound in tune if you tune and adjust all pedals and knee levers straight up with no compensation whatsoever? Also, what criteria would be acceptable to you which would prove either theory. The criteria for me is...does it sound in tune to my ear.

David Doggett · Post by **David Doggett** » 3 Dec 2004 8:05 am

Reece, JP is right I believe. The stretch tuning starts with ET and stretches it a little sharper the higher you go, and a little flatter the lower you go. It definitely does not make ET become JI. I believe it is considered the standard variety of ET for keyboards, and I have even read here on the Forum that if you put a strobe on vocalists and variable-pitched instruments, they naturally stretch, even though they otherwise play JI. So the stretch seems to be a natural part of any tuning system, including both ET and JI. PF, Jr. has said he tunes (JI) a little sharp of the meter to account for the fact that pedal steel mostly plays in a higher register where the piano is stretched.

Jim, b0b covered somewhere above what happens when a JI player centers his chord around an ET pitch. The idea is that the JI player will naturally play the whole chord slightly sharp of the ET pitch, so that the tonic and 5th are slightly above ET and the flatter JI 3rd is slightly below ET. On balance it sounds good, supposedly with fewer beats than the perfect ET chord. So this is not exactly playing ET, in that the chord on your JI instrument is not ET within itself. But because of your automatic bar compensation, you are playing close to ET in terms of the fundamental you are matching your chord to. This fundamental itself may be JI or ET, depending on what instrument (or vocal) you are playing to by ear.

This works because most people's ears do not notice differences of less than 5 cents. Thus, even though the difference between the JI 3rd and tonic may be noticeably more than 5 cents, when the chord is centered on an ET fundamental, the difference between either the tonic or 3rd and the ET fundamental will be less than 5 cents, and so not noticeable. I realize many musicians can hear differences less than 5 cents playing alone in a quiet room. But I think it is probably true that even most musicians with good ears are not offended by differences less than 5 cents in live music of ensembles. This seems to be how variable-pitch instruments and fixed-pitch instruments have played together from time immemorable.

They mostly worry about this stuff only in music schools. The reason us steelers bet so caught up in this is that the steel guitar is a very unique instrument. Correct me if I am wrong, but I cannot think a a single other variable-pitched instrument that plays chords. Horns clearly do not. Although strings sometimes play double stops, technically two notes are not a chord. Forgetting that technicality, they still have to play the two notes in tune with each other, so they can have this problem, but double stops are pretty rare in the string world. All the other instruments I can think of that play chords are fixed-pitch, and so must play ET. A piano tuned JI in a single key, cannot even play all the chords in that one key JI, much less other keys.

Because, of the ease of tuning guitars between songs, you can actually tune a guitar almost JI for one key, and get pretty good JI for a few of the main chords, such as the I, IV and V. Other chords, such as the II and VI will be way off. But because of this, many guitar players tune close to JI for a single key. It works fair for keys with some of the same chords. So if you tune JI to an E chord, your A and B chords will be pretty good. And you can go to the key of A, and get the A, D and E chords, pretty good. Also bar chords anywhere up the neck work pretty good if it is the bar configuration you tuned to. But if you go to the key of G or C, you are in real trouble. If you quickly tune JI to a G or C chord, then you can play in these two keys fairly well. I see countless country, bluegrass, folk and blues guitarists doing this retuning thing and staying closer to JI than ET for their songs with simple chords. When you get to Jazz and classical styles with more complicated chord progressions this doesn't work, and those players are more likely to tune straight up ET.

With the steel guitar, we can have a movable JI chord. I don't know of any other instrument that has that. Also, even when we use inversions that change the string that is the JI 3rd, on pedal steel we can often tune that third (and whatever string was the third in the previous inversion) with independent pedal or lever stops that don't affect the open string tuning. So you can get way more chords JI than a regular guitar. But eventually, if you add enough strings to fill out the whole scale and even some of the chromatic scale, and as you get more pedal and lever combinations, you arrive at combinations of open strings, pedals or levers that can't be JI. Part of our individual preferences for JI or ET derives from how much we personally use the simple basic positions and how much we use a greater variety of other positions. It's an amazing damn instrument.

[This message was edited by David Doggett on 07 December 2004 at 08:11 AM.]

Jim Peters · Post by **Jim Peters** » 3 Dec 2004 8:12 am

Hi Reece, the question is really "in tune to what". Right now I tune my steel straight up, changes too. It does sound in tune to me, except for the slight cabinet drop on string 6, which is a different issue. But I know that as I play along with different recordings, I move or adjust the bar to be in tune with the instruments in the song, everyone I'm sure does this. So again, does the initial tuning really matter( to a point), since in the end you really play to the tuning of the rest of the band anyway? I know I don't have hardly any steel experience compared to you guys, but in my 35 years of gigging on 6 string, I have learned lots about playing with other instruments. Your criteria is fine with me, I bet we would mostly agree on in tune or not. I have 2 respected steel friends in St. Louis, they sound in tune to me, neither tunes JI as for as I know. I bet they would sound in tune to you also. Does my analogy from my last post make any sense at all, or is it way off, and if so how? Your opinion as a builder and veteran player counts lots with me, and I'm trying but failing to see it your way . THANKS, JP

Gene Jones · Post by **Gene Jones** » 3 Dec 2004 10:32 am

I don't think the question is whether to tune JI or ET....the real goal is to get in tune with whoever you happen to be working with at the moment, and not the labels!

The music job is the real world of playing, not a classroom exercise.

www.genejones.com [This message was edited by Gene Jones on 03 December 2004 at 10:37 AM.]

Ron Sodos · Post by **Ron Sodos** » 3 Dec 2004 11:03 am

I am still confused. There is no way possible to tune everything to the same pitch. Without temper tuning (G# to 439 B's to 442 etc) my steel would be totally out of tune to itself. I still don't get how you guys are wondering about intonation when the steel is not in tune to itself? After the steel is in tune to itself then intonation becomes an issue dealt with in your hands and in your ears. There is no way to tune the steel to all the same hertz.....

[This message was edited by Ron Sodos on 03 December 2004 at 11:04 AM.]

Reece Anderson · Post by **Reece Anderson** » 3 Dec 2004 11:19 am

David D....Thank you for your opinion. The fact "any" stretch is needed regardless of where it is within octaves....proves the theory of JT to me, thereby verifying the validity of such.

I appreciate your exceptional ability to communicate your thoughts.

Jim P....Thank you for your comments and the way you presented them.

In answer to your question "in tune to what"?....in tune relative to the standard tuning pitch accepted the world over, plus the stretch necessary (JI) to make it sound in tune!

I would still like to know if you tune "everything" straight up 440. If you do and believe you're in tune, then you're in tune to your ear, which is what's most important.

Were I to hear you play, you might convince me ET works across the board, however I'm sure you can respect the fact that I would have to hear it to believe it regardless of who is playing. In the meantime I will certainly accept your word that you believe it sounds in tune.

It's a pleasure to discuss this matter and thank you for taking the time to do so.

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 3 Dec 2004 11:55 am

Reece wrote:

A piano would sound horribly out of tune were it to be tuned ET. Pianos are tuned using a "stretch" method, which as I see it....is JI.

Pianos are tempered instruments. Tempering by definition is anything that is not JI.

It is mathematically impossible to create system of 12 tones per octave that will sound reasonably in tune in all 12 keys without using some kind of temperament.

The "stretching" of the ET scale, where an octave is defined as more than 1200 cents, does not change the fact that the scale is tempered. If a scale is tempered, it is not just intonation.

I get really annoyed when people confuse the definitions of these very technical terms. Equal Temperament (ET) is just one of many temperament systems. Just Intonation (JI) is not a temperament - it's the lack of temperament.

This is not my opinion. It's the actual meaning of the words. Look them up.

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<img align=right src="http://b0b.com/Hotb0b.gif" width="96 height="96">Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs, Open Hearts
Sierra SD-12 (Ext E9), Williams D-12 Crossover, Sierra S-12 (F Diatonic)
Sierra Laptop 8 (E6add9), Fender Stringmaster (E13, C6, A6)

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 3 Dec 2004 12:00 pm

b0b -- what's meantone?

It's a historical temperament used before the invention of ET. Half of the key signatures sound nicely in tune, and the other half have one or more ugly-sounding "wolf" notes.

I described how I use it for C6th in this topic.

David Doggett · Post by **David Doggett** » 3 Dec 2004 12:54 pm

b0b is right. As I understand the traditional use of the terms, JI is untempered, and any deviation from JI, intentionally or not, is some kind of tempering. There are an infinite numer of different ways to temper, but within reason only one JI. The tempered/JI terminology is typically (but maybe not exclusively) used only to refer to relationships within a single octave. "Stretch" is a term used to describe diffences from pure ET between different octaves. Thus, it is possible to stretch, or not, with both JI and ET. This raises the question of whether piano tuners put stretch within a single octave. That's getting beyond my meager knowledge of the subject.

I don't know if your typical handheld electronic tuner incorporates stretch tuning. I would guess not.

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 3 Dec 2004 2:05 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Shown is a plot of actual measurements of a piano tuned by a skilled tuner, along with a curve resulting from the average of many such measurements:

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>This shows how the "stretching" actually works. For more information, read this page at the Precision Strobe Tuners site.[This message was edited by Bobby Lee on 03 December 2004 at 02:06 PM.]

Reece Anderson · Post by **Reece Anderson** » 3 Dec 2004 2:27 pm

Bobby L....Tis the season to be jolly. I consider it unfortunate you're spending your time being annoyed by such things, no matter what the season.

I wish all a happy holiday season and hope everyone sounds in tune with the band tonight, no matter how they tune.

Jim Peters · Post by **Jim Peters** » 3 Dec 2004 2:32 pm

I'll second that! JP

Eric West · Post by **Eric West** » 3 Dec 2004 5:47 pm

I have yet to see a well known steel player say they tune every string and every pedal and knee lever to ET, and unless they do, it would appear to me their ear agrees with the principals of JI. -Reece Anderson-

Actually when I posted my Armageddon query as a bush league bar/club/truckstop player, I had no idea that there were so many people that flattened or sharpened things to fit "their ears". I was extremely surprised that I had company in not doing it for reasons other than simpleminded laziness.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>My apologies for not explaining up front Bill, but I do tune everything ET. Compensation is what I had to deal with tuning the old way but now it’s a thing of the past. I may go a cent or so flat in some cases but strictly to handle temp changes under certain conditions.
Also when I hear a JI steel third in a ET track, flat is the only word I can come up with. -Buddy Emmons-<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I’ve tuned both ways an equal amount of years and the albums I’ve recorded over twenty years ago speak for the difference. My primary reason for tuning ET is to get everything out of the guitar that it’s capable of delivering. To me that’s what you should expect out of any musical instrument. Tuning ET has allowed me to use pedals and pedal combinations never before possible when I had to compromise. Besides, I figure if somebody can get away with tuning 9 cents flat to every other instrument, then I’m home free. -Buddy Emmons-

Of course it is an instrument that can move beatless chords "up and down". Correctly, the only one I know of. Certainly a Piano cannot do it without extremely complicated computer processing.

The limitation that seem to be glossed over is that there doesn't seem to be a comprehensive method, machine compensation system that allowes Beatlessness in every (more than three or at the most) pedal/lever inversion. If there is, I'd like to see it, or read it, and in the hundreds of Beatless Tuning posts I've read, I haven't read or even heard about "One". There's invariably more than one inversion that's unacceptably dissonant.

Also, the single notes, and moving chords, and/or partial chords, using pedals or knee levers to get one note out of the context of the "Beatless" chord that it is part of is a dissonance far greater than the "ET" by simple mechanical limitations.

Those are two central incongrueties of the "moving beatless chord".

The third is playing with fixed pitch instruments such as guitars and pianae.

Now, the way the "arguement" runs it's course typically, no matter how much simple information is put forth, ot how many others such as I post the "Stretch Tuning Chart for Piano Tuners" is getting predictable.

Somewhere after the second page, somebody kind of gets up, straightens their pants, yawns and says "It's all too complicated", and heads out of the day room.

Then, the hangers on that want the simple answers meet with fates that aren't quite so genteel.

"Oh Well", somebody says, "Even if you don't tune beatlessly, you play beatlessly".

What??

In my case, I watched a string of challenges, a series of snide remarks, stupid aspersions, and As Andy Griffith used to say, "I don't know what all...

". None of which affect the steady, low level, though well paid jobs that I have, or will continue getting.

Can I hear "out of tune stuff"?. Oh Mama! I've been listening to an "oldies station" that plays all the cover tunes from Eddy Rabbit, Reba, Charlie P, and others from the 70s and 80s. Mostly it's vocals, or obviously overdubbed studio licks and chords. It all fits WELL within what I consider to be good music. Certainly as well and better than I ever played most of it.

Do I agree that we should all just agree that there's too much tedious information, and that the enormity of it all makes it all useless to be able to say that you have a "simple method of tuning that you stand behind"?

No.

I'll stick with the way Mr Emmons tunes.

I've heard Mr Myrick tunes that way too.

It seems that Rick Schmidt tunes that way.

All the changes, All the strings, tuned straight up. Just like I have for 25 years.

Way before I knew that anybody either did or didn't.

If nothing else, I can always get a job playing with the fat and the ugly... and there's certainly nothing wrong with that

.

I agree totally with everybody.

Especially at this holy time of the year.

Bless you all.

I'm praying for you.

Gotta do it at the gig though, I"m late..

Eric L.

PS. I wonder how Bobbe Seymour tunes....

[This message was edited by Eric West on 03 December 2004 at 06:02 PM.]

Billy McCoy · Post by **Billy McCoy** » 3 Dec 2004 6:49 pm

Well b0b,

I guess I was one of those guys who miffed you a little....my apologies.

From what I have gathered over the last few months on threads such as this.....ET was a tuning with the tuner set to 440hz and a person tuned all the strings to the same dot in the middle....

To me, that is not tempered tuning...but, that's my opinion and obviously not right by definition.

I tune my six string high E to that 440hz middle dot....then the other strings are chimed at the 5th or 7th fret to the same middle dot....which is not considered ET or straight up ....but rather tempered tuning.

Buzz Feiten system is what I use on my guitar...which is a tempered tuning...
which by the definition you posted is ET...
but reading other POSTs here....ET is tuning every string to the same dot...

So, yes, I am confused on the matter.,...I will admit that first rattle out of the box.

I always thought that tuning the 3rds a hair flat and my 5ths a little sharp was considered tempered tuning... a lot like the piano....but as I read more and more...
tempered tuning is ET...or stretch ET...

If you stretch the ET tuning (Sharpening some notes and flating others).....isn't that in essence tuning more to JI????

I am anxious to hear more....as I am learning a lot from this discussion.
I have used the tuner ...and then (tempered) from that by ear on all 5 instruments that I play.

Looking forward to learning more on this subject ....

Before hearing back from you b0b....I sit here and think about it....
I guess my tuning is a stretch JI of sorts...
I take Newmans chart...and change little things here and there to make it work for me.

Thanks all for helping me understand more on the subject.

b

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MSA Millennium D10, Walker Stereo Steel, Stone Tree Custom Tele, LINE 6 Vetta II and POD XT PRO

Pete Burak · Post by **Pete Burak** » 3 Dec 2004 8:31 pm

This thread is starting to give me an Ear-Ache ('specially the straight up stuff)!

Tom Olson · Post by **Tom Olson** » 3 Dec 2004 8:51 pm

From The Just Intonation Network --

JUST INTONATION is any system of tuning in which all of the intervals can be represented by ratios of whole numbers

I haven't sat down to actually try to figure it out, and maybe there's an answer to this lurking around the forum somewhere, but -- in view of the above definition of JI, is it really possible to tune a psg to true JI?

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 4 Dec 2004 4:59 pm

Yes, you can, Tom. Here are the ratios:
<center>

</center>
Many steel players have compensator pulls on the first or second pedal to lower the F# strings from 9/4 and 9/8 (the large major second) to 20/9 and 10/9 (the small major second). This pulls those strings in tune with the "A" tonality of the pedals down position.

Eric talks about combinations and inversions that are out of tune, as though they're all over the place. Frankly, I have to hunt around quite a bit to find chords that aren't in tune on the E9. It all comes full circle at the F#, and if you have compensators there you're home free.

I'd like to challenge Eric to show me some combinations that are out of tune in the standard copedent when it's tuned to JI.

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<img align=right src="http://b0b.com/Hotb0b.gif" width="96 height="96">Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs, Open Hearts
Sierra SD-12 (Ext E9), Williams D-12 Crossover, Sierra S-12 (F Diatonic)
Sierra Laptop 8 (E6add9), Fender Stringmaster (E13, C6, A6)[This message was edited by Bobby Lee on 04 December 2004 at 05:00 PM.]

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 4 Dec 2004 5:11 pm

If you stretch the ET tuning (Sharpening some notes and flating others).....isn't that in essence tuning more to JI????

Not at all, Billy. Consider this:

The JI major third is 386 cents.

The ET major third is 400 cents.

If you stretch ET, making an octave slightly more than 1200 cents, the major third will be slightly wider, making it even further from the pure JI interval.