Marlen D-10

Lane Gray · Post by **Lane Gray** » 18 May 2016 1:44 pm

Pictures would tell us which pedals do what, and let us know what's going on.
Here's what I'd recommend if pics are out of the question:
1) put both guitars face down in their cases
2) put your Carter in front of the Marlen.
3) look to see which 3 pedals on the Marlen look like they do the same thing as on the Carter, look for pattern recognition. Those are the E9th pedals, and it'll tell you which neck is which.
Once you get it tuned, write down what each pedal and lever does.

Dennis N Brown · Post by **Dennis N Brown** » 18 May 2016 3:06 pm

thanks lane I willdo that my computer tech is coming tonight I do have a digital camera hopefully he can show me hoe to get pics on my computer and send themwhere I want.. can anyone out there give me tuning frequencies for the c 6 neck like I use on the e 9 neck the frequency for each string you know what I am talking about for sure ie 439 440 441.5 442 etc any other tuning methods and written information will be helpful in getting me started with my new toy yours dennis n brown

Lane Gray · Post by **Lane Gray** » 18 May 2016 3:12 pm

I tune everything straight up except for E, F#, A and C#, which go 4 cents flat (that's 439.5 on the stupid scale that Jeff Newman never should have read).

Dennis N Brown · Post by **Dennis N Brown** » 18 May 2016 4:51 pm

lane explain straight up do you mean at 440.0 or what what is the scale reading for straight up so far that is the only one I can use untilli get more knowledge and experience I have already been able to figure what pedaland strings control what and have that allwritten down thanks somuch for takeing time with a newbie like me I really appreciate I amamgoing toprowl and lurk on the forum in generaland see what I can learn there also dennis

Lane Gray · Post by **Lane Gray** » 18 May 2016 5:26 pm

By straight up, I mean 440.
As you're new to this, I'll spare you my usual rant about the silliness of the "Hertz" scale on your tunerÂ¹.

Â¹The other scale on the tuner (with 0 in the middle) makes more sense, but that's a philosophy discussion.

Dennis N Brown · Post by **Dennis N Brown** » 18 May 2016 5:54 pm

thanks I really appreciate yourhelp by the waymy exwife ranted somuch idivorced her cheating butt .ran off with a copnolessguess hisgun was bigger than mine ha ha owwell anyway thankslane yu have been a bighelp we allneed tobe humblesometimes and remember back when we were thenewbi by the way I am a retired gunsmith so if you need any gun advice let meknow dennis

John Scanlon · Post by **John Scanlon** » 18 May 2016 6:28 pm

Not all Marlens are pull-release. My 1990 Marlen SD-10 is all-pull, 3 up and 2 down on the changer. And it has mechanical half stops on both RKs.

Ned McIntosh · Post by **Ned McIntosh** » 19 May 2016 9:47 pm

The all-pull Marlens are highly-regarded and usually go for very reasonable prices. From what I have been agble to gather, Joe Kline built the all-pull changers for Len Stadler. Here's a diagram I saved from the forum a few years ago showing the basic design...slightly different to an all-pull changer of today.

Not sure when Len changed from pull-release to all-pull but someone on the forum will know.

Dennis N Brown · Post by **Dennis N Brown** » 20 May 2016 8:19 am

thanks everyone for your help I do have pics of my marlen but am waiting on my computer tech to teach me how to post them after studying pic of several marlens of yours I amconvinced that mine is late 60r early 70s model I was toldit was a 78 but it looks tobeolder so when I getmy pics up I think you all are going to tellme I have a push release version I guitar has many of the same features of the late 60 and 70s models but we willeventually find out right now my biggest problem is getting info on tuning the pedals and knees you all say once you get it tuned I am assuming you are referring to the pedals and knees that they stay tuned I s ure hope so heck imight even get lucky and they are already in tune just have toplay it more todetermine that yours dennis in Pocahontas ark

Ned McIntosh · Post by **Ned McIntosh** » 20 May 2016 6:35 pm

Hi Dennis,
If your changer looks like the picture below, you have a pull-release Marlen. They're great guitars with awesome tone, but they need to be properly set up by someone who knows what they are doing because it's not as easy to set up as all-pull systems.

You are balancing spring-tension against string-tension, in a controlled and repeatable manner. Once set up it will hold tuning for a long time (unless you change string-gauges!!). They have a softer feel on the pedals and levers than an all-pull because there is of necessity more mechanical movement. Once you see how it all works your gunsmithing mechanical knowledge will help you understand the mechanism quite clearly.

Keeping the pull-rods straight and not binding or rubbing against anything will really help, because friction is the arch-enemy of pull-release. So here's what the pull-release changer looks like from under the guitar:-

and here is what a set of straight rods should look like:-

Sounds like you have one very fine steel there with loads of potential once it is set up and tuned.

Dennis N Brown · Post by **Dennis N Brown** » 20 May 2016 8:19 pm

hi ned your pichelped a lot I have taken several pics but I am 68 and computer dumb my guitar looks a lot like yours same naturalmaple finish where you have one opening on the pickupside mine has 2 also each string on ach neck has a spring loaded screw directly behind each spring just what is the purpose of those ido understand the purpose of the rods underneath they are used to set the pedals and knees. gentleman I am not atotal dummy I have beenplaying over 40 years I play bass rhythem/lead and violin and sing I can set upa bass or 6 string asgood as anybody and I also fix and epaire violins andfillbows and such ned is right once ifigure wht every thing is and does I can canprobbly figure I willget my picup as soon as pissible realy appreciate every one help by the way I had a cousin who married an aussie guy they got married in the islands youknow perlharbor and such you austrailians talkso cooli loveto hear really dig crocodile Dundee I realy like bigknives too ps ialso blacksmith dennis n brown Pocahontas Arkansas a true son of the south

Ned McIntosh · Post by **Ned McIntosh** » 20 May 2016 10:19 pm

Hi Again Dennis,

Some photos and some hints:-

The screws at the end-plate (behind each changer-finger) are used to open notes and lowered notes. I think these are the screws you are referring to, so I'll explain as clearly as I can what they do.

In the photo below, you are looking straight down on the E9th changer. The string ball-ends are the brass fittings on the steel-pins on each changer-finger. The leftmost string is the lowest note (B) and is string 10, the rightmost string is the high F# (string 1).

At the bottom of the picture are the screws which stick out at the end-plate. These tune one of two possibilities; either they tune a string which is raised only, or they tune a string which is lowered only.

In the photo you can see the threaded end of each screw touching most of the changer-fingers, but not all of them. First, on my steel, string 7 has no lower or raise on it, so the changer-finger just rests against the end of the screw and the open note is tuned by the tuning-key, which is intuitive. Once it is tuned, it's tuned and it's not going anywhere. But most other strings are either raised or lowered, and that's where these screws can become involved.

Here's basically how pull-release on a Marlen works (and we are assuming that it was been correctly set up initially and was more or less in tune). Let's also be clear about terminology. "Tuning" means bringing notes to their required pitch. "Setting-Up" means the initial process of adjusting the mechanism so each pedal and lever has enough travel to allow each string to be correctly tuned. Before tuning a steel-guitar, it has to be correctly set-up. We are talking about "Tuning" now.

To raise a string, a pedal (or a lever) is activated. This motion is transferred to a bellcrank on a cross-shaft, which rotates slightly. Attached to the bellcrank is a rod (the "raise-rod") which runs from the bellcrank to one of the holes in the changer-finger, where it is secured by either a collar and set-screw, or a plastic hex-nut called a tuning-nut.

As the bellcrank pulls on one end of the raise-rod, the the other end of the raise-rod pulls the changer-finger away from the stop-screw which it was resting against, and therefore the pitch of the note rises.

This is really important:- "A raised note is tuned by the tuning-key at the keyhead-end of the guitar."

Once the raised note is correctly tuned, the raise is released and the open-note (i.e. un-raised note) is tuned by adjusting the screw at the end-plate, because now the changer-finger will be at rest against it. If you run the screw in slightly it increases the pitch, and if you back the screw off, the pitch decreases. You DO NOT tune the open-note on a string that has a raise only on it with the tuning-key! You tune it with the screws behind the changer.

So, setting up a string which is raised only is a matter of repeating both processes until the raise is tuned and the open-note is also correct. Pretty straightforward.

A note which is lowered only is also tuned by these screws at the end-plate, but now you have to find a way to hold the changer-finger away from the end of the screw for the open-note.

This is usually done by a rod attached to a spring under the keyhead end of the guitar, running through a hole in the changer-finger, just like a raise-rod. To apply tension, the end of the rod protruding through the hole in the changer-finger is threaded and has a plastic tuning-nut on it. Let's call this a "Tension-Rod". Below is a shot of the ends of the tension rods and the tension-rod springs on my Marlen D10's E9th neck.

A way to prevent the tension-rod rotating must be found (so the tuning-nut actually advances or retreats along the thread and thus increases or decreases tension on the string via the changer-finger), and usually this mechanism is also used to achieve the lower by simply over-riding the tension set by the tuning-nut so the changer-finger moves backwards until it touches the end of the screw.

Running the screw in or out tunes the lowered note, which leads to the following observation:-

"A lowered note is tuned by the stop-screw at the end-plate of the guitar."

But you still have to tune the open-note. Once the lower is tuned, the open-note is fine-tuned with the plastic tuning-nut (not the tuning-key!) Each step is repeated until the lowered note is true and the open note is likewise true.

By the way, on earlier Marlens, there was no tuning-nut for lowers on the knee-levers (a stop-collar was used instead), but the amount of travel of the lever itself was adjusted under the guitar to tune the lowered-note. Depending on when it was made your guitar may use that method rather than a tuning-nut.

Once you get your steel upside-down and begin pushing on a pedal or a lever and seeing how the mechanisms actually work for raises and lowers, this will all fall into place.

Strings which are both raised and lowered (typically strings 4 and 8 on the E9th neck) require a little more complexity, usually involving a third tension-rod for tuning the open-note.

String 4 is the most complex, because it is usually raised by both a knee-lever (E to F) and a pedal (E to F# via pedal 3)as well as lowered by a knee-lever (E to E flat), but that is perhaps for another post at another time.

Here's one thing to keep in mind about pull-release in general:- this mechanism was designed for the relatively simple copedents of the 1970s. It handles any of them just fine, but trying to add splits and half-stops starts to get a bit more involved. Back in the 70s the standard E9th tuning was 3 pedals and 4 knee-levers...and that's all people like Lloyd Green, Hal Rugg and Weldon Myrick needed to play some of the greatest steel of the era which still sets a benchmark today.

Lane Gray · Post by **Lane Gray** » 21 May 2016 3:41 am

Beautiful description, Ned.

Dennis N Brown · Post by **Dennis N Brown** » 21 May 2016 2:01 pm

well mr grey I got you beat on junk I have 3 lead guitars 2 bass guitars,2 violins 1 mandolin 2mharmonicas and 2steels acarter and the marlen 3 amps a fender frontman for the 6 string leads ,apeavey bass ampfor the bass and violin and a peavey sessions 400 for the steels wait it gets better 1 complete p a 400 watt head console with 8channels 2 mail speakers ,2 monitors 4 wired mikes with stand and a wireless vocal mike aka garth brooks I have played in bands foryears butnow I would like to formmy own ihave everything except decent serious musicians, good ecentplayers are hard to come by in these parts note I said decent idont mean Nashville quality players and singers just good intermediate players likeme we dohave some Nashville talent frompocahontas and thesurrounding Robert bowlin 3time national flatpicking champion he was playing fiddle formr billmunroe when he passed Barbra Fairchild who was famious for the teddy bear song she is now into Christian music and alsodistantly related another relation is billrice he wrote alotof Charlie pride songs also garry Gassaway a trumpet player whois world known and finally asteeler steve Wilkerson whoplayed a lotofthe hea haw shoes his 1 st cousin bill Wilkerson stevescousin is localandhelpsme when he can butis very busy with his trucking business soi don't see himveryoften asforpics I amhaving tokiss upalittletomy computer tech on the pics he lovestofish soihave loaned myfishing rig for the weekend if he don't drown or sink himself oh howlow we must stoopsometimes toreach ourgoals honestly ihave my picstaken the wilget themonline toallof you as soon as possible tomourfriendly Australian your pics and comments will be very helpful but I am68 and willhave toponder them some before it sinks guess it is agood thing that I am stubborn idont give upeasy at all thanks foe the comments and keepthem coming I am a gluttion for punishment ha ha yous dennis n brown Pocahontas a true son of the south

Bob Carlucci · Post by **Bob Carlucci** » 22 May 2016 4:28 am

Mine is killer... the MSA in the picture with it is gone, as well as oh probably 6 or 7 other steels in the past 2 years, yet the Marlen remains.. plays ultra soft and light, NEVER goes out of tune, sounds beautiful of course, and it has had the same strings on it going on 3 years.. They refuse to break.. I think I might have broken 1 at some point 2 years ago, but I might be mistaken.. In any case, none of the dozens of pedal steels I have owned in 40 years of playing has broken fewer strings, sounded,tuned or played better than this old marlen.. It was a royal pain in the ass to reconfigure the copedent, and add a pedal to, but once completed has not budged.. The pull/release changer and pull mechanism on these guitars is not all that easy to work onfor guys used to all pull, but once you understand it, and learn a few tricks, its not all that terrible bad, just time consuming. To add a crosshaft for instance, you have to pull the aluminum frame away from the guitar, with all the other crosshafts and rods still connected.. Challenging, but once done, it stays the way you set it.. bob

Lane Gray · Post by **Lane Gray** » 22 May 2016 4:43 am

The more we talk about these, the more I miss mine. If anyone with a Marlen D-10 of at least 8 and 4 would rather have an MSA S-12 (currently Extended E9th 5 and 5) I'll be open to a swap

Dennis N Brown · Post by **Dennis N Brown** » 22 May 2016 11:45 am

hey lane ifyou miss it that much you can have mine I feelit is going to be more than I can handle your msa is a 12 string right I am going to stay with 10 strings my marlen is a 8 and 4 I give 1,700 including shipping you can buy it or trade me a 10string 8 and 4 yours dennis I really wanted a bmi but couldn't swing the cash with a another forum member he wouldn't take a credit card just amoney and I tried butcouldnt raise the cash oh well yours dennis ps double necke 9 and c 6

Lane Gray · Post by **Lane Gray** » 22 May 2016 12:42 pm

At the moment, I can't swing a purchase. Otherwise I might. The two guitars are worth a similar amount.

Dennis N Brown · Post by **Dennis N Brown** » 22 May 2016 2:30 pm

to ned andothers my guitar is definitely push release underneath the rods are of different lengths on the stops it just may be in good adjustment and I amdumb enough not to realise it on thespring loaded adjusting screws for the fingers mine are all right out in the open just behind the fingers while yours gothru the case I do not find the tension screws you show inyour last pic also mine does not have nearly as many rods underneath as yours which leads me tobelieve it is a earlier modelthan yours and hopefully more simple I willget pics up as soon as my tech can get to me meanwhile amreding and reareading your comments thanks dennis

Dennis N Brown · Post by **Dennis N Brown** » 22 May 2016 2:36 pm

ned I mentpush release,, sorry your guitar and mine look virtually in the color though mine does have some individual inlays down the front I believe mine is a earlier model than yours because of the fewer amount of rods underneath if your is a 70 model mine could be 60s or mabey even 50 model dennis

richard burton · Post by **richard burton** » 22 May 2016 9:27 pm

Dennis,
I have pictures of my 1966 Marlen on this page:

http://www.thebritishsteeliessociety.co ... =18&t=6583

Click on the photos to make them bigger, and see if your Marlen is similar to it.

Dennis N Brown · Post by **Dennis N Brown** » 22 May 2016 9:56 pm

ello Richard thanks for posting my guitar is similar and different my body is almost identicalto neds in austrailia except the front of mine has several inlays your finger tuning screws are exactaly likemine I couldn't make out much about your underside my underside pics that I am trying to post aren't close enough for good detail my underside is black and appears tobe original per neds suggestion I have my marlen bottom side up while pressing my pedals on mine only pedals 1 2 and 3 seemto work the e 9 neck that is also likeyours I believe I wilsit down tomorrow and diagramand identify and write down which pedals and knees operate which stringor strings on both necks e 9 and c6 just a question though wont a man tune all strings by the tuning keys first I use a korg tuner that I paid right at 100 for it just seems tomake sense to tune all strings to open first and then this is where tospring loaded tuning screws come into play in tuning the pedals and knees am I right or wrong with my assumption slowy but surely I am getting to understang this marlen beastthanks for your response allcomments by anyone are welcome I amnot bashful about asking yours dennis n brown Pocahontas Arkansas a true son of the south

Lane Gray · Post by **Lane Gray** » 23 May 2016 12:05 am

Pull-release tunes differently from normal.
If a string is raised by a pedal or a knee, you have to tune the tuning peg with the raise activated.

Dennis N Brown · Post by **Dennis N Brown** » 23 May 2016 8:47 am

hi lane sowhat you are saying if astring is activitated the pedal has tobe depressed when I amusing the korg tuner some strings are not activitated by any pedalor knee sojust tune themopen when tuning a string which is activtated wont that make it low and out of tune when the pedalisnot used also when a string is activated with both a [pedal and a knee what do you do tune the pedal and leave the knee alone seems if you tune both either the pedalor knee will be out of tune yes I know I a thick headed but I am trying to understand dennis

Lane Gray · Post by **Lane Gray** » 23 May 2016 9:18 am

Let's talk about the 4th string first, since it probably has FOUR different notes on it.
This will sound weird to a guitar player, but the first note you tune is the C pedal F#. Hold down the C pedal and tune the F# at the keyhead. Yes, with the tuning key.
The next note is the D#: hit the lever that lowers the 4th string, and tune it with those screws through the body. THEN tune the open note E, either in the window or under the guitar. Then the "F" note, on the lever that raises the E strings