Tolerance and Intolerance

Fred Shannon · Post by **Fred Shannon** » 28 Nov 2004 5:20 am

I had the honor of playing for a Veterans benefit Thanksgiving Eve at a local municipal auditorium. Our band and two others, as usual, donated out time and efforts to fund some projects for a veterans home here. Before the show one of our younger aspirants of the instrument, much younger than I because I'm older than dirt, came over and scraped his grubby fingers across the strings of my cherished blue Millennium, and loudly announced the stupidity of my tuning. A tuning that has loyally put my three children through college and provided a better lifestyle for my family than just my day job could afford. A tuning that is necessary for me to be able to continue playing steel guitar publicly because of damage to motor nerves in my right arm. I said nothing although my first whim was to pull his head off and pour dirt down the hole. The band he plays with was first on the agenda and ours was to play last. He broke his back with a solo lead on one of the "new country" ballads (if that is the proper term, I don't know anymore) and after his "superb effort" was over there was a smattering of applause from the over 1500 patriotics in the audience. My little ditty was an old standby I've been at for over 35 years, a song familiar to all old timers called "Steeling the Blues". After it was over there was a standing ovation which indicated to me three possibilities; all the people in the audience were old timers which they were, I did a fairly decent job with the song, or because of my white hair they thought perhaps it would be my last time on the stage. In any case it proves to me that some people have tolerance while some folks don't. My departing statement to our younger associate was, "Gee, do you think folks know the difference between a good tuning and one that is not, or maybe they just don't understand stupidity." A smirk and a wry smile followed, but really who cares. Intolerance gets one nothing plus old age wisdom and guile will conquer youth and talent most any day. Thanks for reading and how about asking yourself on which side of the fence do I belong?

fred

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The spirit be with you!
If it aint got a steel, it aint real

Roger Kelly · Post by **Roger Kelly** » 28 Nov 2004 5:45 am

Fred.....WAY TO GO MAN!!

Farris Currie · Post by **Farris Currie** » 28 Nov 2004 5:49 am

Way to go Fred,now i need that tuning??
farris

Jim Cohen · Post by **Jim Cohen** » 28 Nov 2004 5:52 am

Fred, there are imbeciles in every walk of life. When I was younger, I used to think musicians were "cool" and we were above that crap, but obviously we are not. I hope your younger colleague got the point, but chances are he still didn't...

Larry Bell · Post by **Larry Bell** » 28 Nov 2004 6:49 am

Fred,
Your class and style were wasted on the poor urchin. He has a lot of growin' up to do before he will ever 'get it'.

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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps

James Morehead · Post by **James Morehead** » 28 Nov 2004 7:14 am

Fred, I never thought of pouring dirt down the hole, great idea!! That's just what you did, too, except you did it with pure, raw style! Way to go!!
You have become this punk's teacher, though he probably won't realise it, or humble himself to that fact. The more dirt you pour down that hole, the closer he'll get to understanding. He is just a little confused about where he belongs on the food chain. HA!!

Bill Llewellyn · Post by **Bill Llewellyn** » 28 Nov 2004 7:43 am

Gosh, that guy actually blurted out a remark like that? Ugh.

http://archives.cnn.com/2002/US/04/02/rude.americans/

David L. Donald · Post by **David L. Donald** » 28 Nov 2004 7:53 am

Fred you played to your audience, with a tuning you are confortable. It hit home with them.
You did your job right.

The young fellow with lack of tact,
may have a point in a purely technical matter,
but in the meat and potatoes practical level
he dropped the ball.

If it works for you, then it is right end of story.

Poor fellow undoubtedly missed a great discusion about WHY youhave stayed with your tuning, and it's benifits.
his loss IMHO.

Dustin Rigsby · Post by **Dustin Rigsby** » 28 Nov 2004 8:31 am

Hey Fred,
What kind of tuning do you use ? I am just a young fellow who interested. Btw, I read and interview with a guitarist who was the flavor of the moment a few years ago,who lamented the fact that an old guy like Les Paul kicked his butt all over the stage one night. Gibson thought Les's idea for a solid body guitar was stupid at first.....need I say more ?

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D.S. Rigsby
Wilcox SD10 3&5

Herb Steiner · Post by **Herb Steiner** » 28 Nov 2004 8:34 am

Fred
There are stupid children everywhere... you and I were probably among them when we were younger. I know I was. This guy was trying to impress you and "one-up" you in his relationship with you. You handled it correctly.

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Herb's Steel Guitar Pages
Texas Steel Guitar Association

Paul Graupp · Post by **Paul Graupp** » 28 Nov 2004 8:57 am

Herb and Fred: I have found in my growing old age that when ever I get down on some young punk for blowing me off the road with a little Honda Civic roaring like a chain saw, that I did the same thing myself with a 53 Buick Roadmaster Convertable. I still recall the feeling of what was that old geek doing on the road anyway...?

After a few hundred of these enlightenments, I have become a lot more tolerant of the younger generation. But I still hate the fact that they think I should listen to their music (noise ??) and owe them some consideration. I always thought that was earned and never demanded by insinuation or innuendo. And I still think orange or green hair is stupid so I'm on the intolerant side of the blade. Sorry !!

Regards, Paul.

Rick Garrett · Post by **Rick Garrett** » 28 Nov 2004 9:00 am

Hey Fred, great job putting the young man in his place. I really like the line James wrote above that said "He is just a little confused about where he belongs on the food chain. HA!!" That says it all!

Rick

Fred Shannon · Post by **Fred Shannon** » 28 Nov 2004 1:49 pm

You know I really wanted to say something that would make the young man aware that he could hurt someone's feelings with his words. I thought making him think about what he had said might just do that. Not a put down although he deserved it I guess. Not my nature. Call them like they are but not to hurt someone. I don't think my words had any effect on him, but maybe later on when he "grows up". Herb you are probably right about being younger but not in the presence of my Dad. I could have gotten by with that one time but there would have been no second. He would have lit my butt up with a belt so bright that the sun would have had trouble coming up.

I would post my tuning on here but the forum mindset at this time would subject it to ridicule because everyone's being so meticulous about tunings. You want it, Email me and I'll be glad to send it to you.

Fred

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The spirit be with you!
If it aint got a steel, it aint real

David L. Donald · Post by **David L. Donald** » 28 Nov 2004 2:07 pm

Ah heck Fred just post it...
if you must ,do it on no pedlers...
but better yet right here.

Lloyd's sin't the most state of the art either for some, but it sure works.

Since your's works for you, than it is valid.

Plus we will group flame any young studs who come on here
and be anything less than circumspect / nice about it's analysis.

Besides you have noted your moter nerve issue,
so it is interesting to see what you could make work for you,
to keep working.[This message was edited by David L. Donald on 28 November 2004 at 02:08 PM.]

Post by **Joey Ace** » 28 Nov 2004 2:57 pm

Nice story, Fred.

Most young Steelers I meet are far more respectful.
Maybe this guy will grow up, maybe not.
What's important is you handled it with class.

Besides,

"The Proof Is In The Pickin".

Dustin Rigsby · Post by **Dustin Rigsby** » 28 Nov 2004 3:11 pm

Fred,
I can understand what you mean about tunings. I use one that Gary Preston developed. I sounds real good. I still think tuning any instrument is all about what the ear percieves as being correct. I came to this belief from being a guitarist. I could tune with a tuner all day, and my ear will still percieve it as incorrect. So I am always "temper tuning" in addition to using a tuner.Before I get flamed here,yes,my intonation and setups were done by a pro. A fellow(can't remember his name) has devoted his whole career studying tuning of the guitar,and actually sells a new style nut system to use with his corrected six string tuning. Once again,I say it is in the ear of the beholder.

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D.S. Rigsby
Wilcox SD10 3&5

Fred Shannon · Post by **Fred Shannon** » 28 Nov 2004 3:16 pm

David and others who've already email me for it, here goes. Don't ask me how I get the augs, dims, minors or whatever. I know the melody and I plays the strings, I use some slants that I brought over from lap steel, and that's all there is to it. I don't think, I don't have to after over 50 years, I just pick. Ask Maurice Anderson he'll tell you this is just how they set my new Millennium up.

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Fred's frigged up tuning: Classified as 'stupid' by some.

1. E
2. B
3. G#
4. E
5. B
6. G#
7. E
8. B
9. G#
10. E

Pedal 1--pulls all B's to C#. I ride this pedal a lot with a lot of bar movement a la lap steel. Just a carryover I guess.
Pedal 2--pulls all G#'s to A
Pedal 3--pulls all B's to C's.... I just put this on and I think I'm gonna like it. Had the reg E9 on strings 4 and 5 until I started this one.

LKL---Pulls all G#'s to G...Reece gave me this to enable open minors.I use it a lot with Pedal 1.
LKR---Pulls all E's to F's....I don't use this one too much, it's easier to move the bar than have to think about where to put it with the lever in. I do use it on some western swing numbers that I've woodsheded.
RKL---Pulls all E's to F#'s.. I use this either by itself or in conjunctions with Pedals 1 And 2.
RKR---Pulls all E's to Eb's...Gives you a B open or V directly under the bar anywhere on the fret board.

That's it. My motor nerves don't allow me to pick between my third and ring finger so the F# on string 7 along with some other combinations on E9 gave me dischords all over the place. In other words I have a tremendous difficulty making the appropriate E9 grips. Sometimes it works and sometimes I should be picking my nose. It would sound better. I nearly quit steel until Sonny Curtis gave me this basic tuning in 1968. One might also look at one of Shot's early tunings. Reece Anderson, and Larry Beck's web pages have enhanced it considerably from the basic that Sonny gave me. It has served me faithfully and I'm well aware that I'm a hacker steeler, but at least I can still play, and nobody throws fruit.

fred

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The spirit be with you!
If it aint got a steel, it aint real

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 28 Nov 2004 3:54 pm

Interesting. What key do you play "Steelin the Blues" in?

HowardR · Post by **HowardR** » 28 Nov 2004 3:57 pm

Well, fruit is expensive today.

The bottom line is your playing. Having a tuning that you are comfortable with and play well is the most important thing.

Gene Jones · Post by **Gene Jones** » 28 Nov 2004 4:46 pm

Fred my friend, I understand your post very well.

Back in the 1960's when I was still hammering away on a Fender 1000 (ala Mooney style)when most of the "younguns" were already into Sho-Buds with those new fangled, high-tech knee levers, I was playing steel full time with a reasonably well known road band.

After a show one night while I was packing away my gear, this young stud in his early 20's came up to me and said: "You play OK for an old guy, but I don't know how you do as well as you do on that piece of junk (referring to my Fender 1000, and for the record I was 33 at the time).

I mumbled a thanks and resisted doing what I was known for doing in those days, but the jerk did me a favor....his rudeness pushed me into learning the Nashville E-9th sound that is the standard of today's country music.

Maybe I needed a "jolt" to give me a new perspective.

Fred, bless you as you move to town.....your "sweat lodge" and your "nam" perspective was understood and appreciated by me and Charlotte.

www.genejones.com [This message was edited by Gene Jones on 28 November 2004 at 05:33 PM.]

Fred Shannon · Post by **Fred Shannon** » 28 Nov 2004 4:48 pm

Bob, Key of A. best i can do.

I would love to be able to play the "standard" tunings, but one has to realize their incapabilities as well as their capabilities I guess. I tried very hard when I came back from Nam but it just wasn't in the cards. Didn't hurt my calf roping ability but played hell with my right hand finger dexterity.

fred

fred

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The spirit be with you!
If it aint got a steel, it aint real

[This message was edited by Fred Shannon on 28 November 2004 at 04:51 PM.]

Chris Schlotzhauer · Post by **Chris Schlotzhauer** » 28 Nov 2004 5:49 pm

What key do you play "Steelin the Blues" in?

I usually play it in C# (on C6)because of the hammer-on's. In an E tuning, I too, am interested what key?

Mike Lovell · Post by **Mike Lovell** » 28 Nov 2004 8:21 pm

Does the tuning really matter? The song gets played and it fits. I bought my first steel for my 50th birthday. There are things in life which keep us young and learning this thing is it for me. I like not knowing and having to ask how to play something. I can move around a 8string lapsteel C6th in a credible manner. Slants and extra bar movement seem normal. I cheat on pedal steel when my brain goes to the Bahamas and leaves me hanging in the middle of a line. I slant to get avoid a red face. If an "experienced" young Dufas doesn't like HOW I play. He isn't worth asking advise. There is value in sitting at the real masters' feet.
Mike

Fred Shannon · Post by **Fred Shannon** » 28 Nov 2004 8:42 pm

Mike truer words were never spoken. Improvement in playing is very important to just keep one's mind in the game. I am currently working on a B6 tuning for a 12 string that I'm restoring. I hope to be able to play it when I'm finished. The tuning was set up by a guy that might know what I'm capable of or not. Reece Anderson seems to think I'll be able to handle it. Guess with that sort of confidence and a lot of diligent practice, maybe it can be done. 71 years may be a little "too mature" to start learning new stuff though.

fred

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The spirit be with you!
If it aint got a steel, it aint real

David L. Donald · Post by **David L. Donald** » 29 Nov 2004 3:24 am

Fred, there are some interesting things in your tuning.
Some things I miss, but in general a more than functional tuning.
A "safe" tuning, basically no cromatics or places to crash unexpectedly, because of the finger issue.

I will make comments, but they are observational, not critical.

You have minor chord levers for pedals up or down. I think this is mandatory. Many don't.
But for playing the main tones of parrallel moving scales
over the roots of a chord pattern this is great.
I bet you do that a good bit, knowingly or not.

I think if you work with the F lever a bit you will find places to slide into with it
Up 3 with Pedal A for an inversion of I
or back 2 with pedal A for a V chord, for instance.

I miss a bit of the 7ths and 6ths in the tuning.
But it is not so far off from a dobro tuning with pedals added.

I do see a lay out issue
if your E's to F was LKL you would use it with Pedal A more.
The G# to G lever could go where it goes with no penalty

On your E to Eb lever you might consider having one of your higher B's, like string 2,
pulled to A for a dom 7 note . Since the Dom 7 is part of your V chord.
It would also have a nice resolving sound back to I

All in all an intersting and unique tuning.

I think the kid just didn't explore it far before making judgement.. his loss.[This message was edited by David L. Donald on 29 November 2004 at 03:25 AM.][This message was edited by David L. Donald on 29 November 2004 at 03:26 AM.][This message was edited by David L. Donald on 29 November 2004 at 03:29 AM.]