I've heard from some sources that MSAs have a reputation for having muddy tone. This has definitely not been my experience with my MSA, which sounds quite warm, full, clear and balanced. So is there something I'm missing here? Where does this idea come from? What does it really mean to say "muddy"? Is it an EQ thing that can be dialed out? Is it a characteristic of the pickup or the instruments body? Thank you.
-Tim
Tonal Characteristics of MSA
Moderator: Shoshanah Marohn
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Tim Tweedale
- Posts: 523
- Joined: 9 Jun 2003 12:01 am
- Location: Vancouver, B.C., Canada
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Donny Hinson
- Posts: 21192
- Joined: 16 Feb 1999 1:01 am
- Location: Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
Tim, there's a lot of what I call "steel snobs" out there. They preach endlessly and agonizingly that some particular brand has the best tone of anything ever built. Usually, the brand they're referring to is Emmons, but I've also heard the same meaningless comments about ZB, Bigsby, Fender, and Zumsteel. All steels sound a little different, but none of 'em sound "bad", and conversely, none of 'em sounds "best", either. If you know how to play, and how to select and set a good amp, they <u>all</u> can sound good!
The old MSA's had their own characteristic sound, but even they had a wider tonal palette that what you would usually hear because steelplayers are likely to avoid turning the knobs on their amps. The logic behind this is that they have received an insight from some "famous player" who sets his knobs at so-and-so, so that simply <u>must</u> be the way to get a good sound. In reality, steels have a <u>broad</u> capability of sounds and tones with different players, and with different amps and settings as well. With a good amp and a graphic EQ, you can get a staggering array of different sounds from a single guitar. Unfortunately, amp manufacturers won't include a good graphic EQ in most amps. They give us 3 or 4 ersatz tone controls, and think we should be happy. As a result, about 99% of the players out there have never experienced what their guitar could really sound like. Their amp is like a puny 6-cylinder engine in a full-sized car. In short, they have never felt real "audio performance", and they wallow away when they can't get the desired sound thinking..."It must be this @%$# guitar?"
How wrong they are.
The old MSA's had their own characteristic sound, but even they had a wider tonal palette that what you would usually hear because steelplayers are likely to avoid turning the knobs on their amps. The logic behind this is that they have received an insight from some "famous player" who sets his knobs at so-and-so, so that simply <u>must</u> be the way to get a good sound. In reality, steels have a <u>broad</u> capability of sounds and tones with different players, and with different amps and settings as well. With a good amp and a graphic EQ, you can get a staggering array of different sounds from a single guitar. Unfortunately, amp manufacturers won't include a good graphic EQ in most amps. They give us 3 or 4 ersatz tone controls, and think we should be happy. As a result, about 99% of the players out there have never experienced what their guitar could really sound like. Their amp is like a puny 6-cylinder engine in a full-sized car. In short, they have never felt real "audio performance", and they wallow away when they can't get the desired sound thinking..."It must be this @%$# guitar?"
How wrong they are.
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Bob Hoffnar
- Posts: 9244
- Joined: 4 Aug 1998 11:00 pm
- Location: Austin, Tx
- Contact:
When I was first checking out pedalsteels by going to every gig I could. I could tell that I did not like the sound of the old MSA's at all. I was not a steel snob by any means. The overtones are not focused so there is not the same tonal definition other brands have. It ends up being called muddy for very real reasons. I have seen great players playing old MSA's and when they get on the 9 and 10th string on the C neck and there was no way to hear what the notes were once the band started playing. They just washed right out. Some guys really like the sound. I sure don't. I differ from Donny because I don't think any amount of EQ, compression or anything will save a steel that doesn't have a focused sound that I like in the first place.
Some people really love there MSA's and I think that is great. They do sound quite a bit different from other brands so try to give them a listen to see if its a sound for you. One thing great about them is they are built like tanks and there are some fantastic deals on some great old steels that have quite a bit of music left in them.
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Bob
intonation help
<FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by Bob Hoffnar on 28 November 2004 at 10:51 PM.]</p></FONT>
Some people really love there MSA's and I think that is great. They do sound quite a bit different from other brands so try to give them a listen to see if its a sound for you. One thing great about them is they are built like tanks and there are some fantastic deals on some great old steels that have quite a bit of music left in them.
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Bob
intonation help
<FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by Bob Hoffnar on 28 November 2004 at 10:51 PM.]</p></FONT>
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Donny Hinson
- Posts: 21192
- Joined: 16 Feb 1999 1:01 am
- Location: Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
Well Bob, let me say this about that. First off, I wouldn't classify you as a "steel snob". You're not one of the ones here on the Forum that espouses continually that his guitar is the "best". And if you don't like the old MSA sound, that's fine too. I'm not trying to sell them. What I <u>do</u> want to do is is present a few facts.
If the old MSA's easily got "lost in the mix", maybe someone should have told Curly or Reece. On second thought, that wouldn't have done much good because <u>they</u> didn't seem to have that problem, and both of those guys did a lotta playing on them "big wires" down at the bottom. The plywood MSA's weren't as good as the later models, but don't discount either as far as what they can do, sound-wise.
Another thing I want to bring up is this "EQ/overtones" thing. We steelers have a rather unique instrument in that it's quite limited (the tonal palette) compared to a straight guitar. We can't just switch to the neck pickup like the average lead man to get a fatter tone. Likewise, we can't combine the sound of two pickups out of phase to get that twangy "gut-bucket" sound...because we don't have two pickups! The design of the instrument limits what can be done with the sound. In essence, we're all playing solid-body guitars with just <u>one</u> pickup! (How many lead players do you know that would limit themselves to just ONE pickup?). The only way we pedal steelers can get different sounds is by picking in a different place or fashion...pretty limited by anyone's metrics, or by amp tone changes. Therefore, the tonal capabilities of the amp are absolutely paramount if we want to have access to the broadest palette of tones from our guitars. (Those who are content with one tone need not read any further.)
I've heard the argument about "overtones" of particular steels before, and it is only germane when using a regular amp. <u>All</u> steels produce overtones. The same tone controls in an amp that control the fundamental tones also control the overtones. That's just common sense, but most people don't think of that. They also think those overtones are set in stone, and in reality, nothing is further from the truth. The amp, if designed properly, has the power to control (to an extent, anyway) the overtones you actually hear. I'm of the opinion that all steels produce the same overtones, and that some overtones are just more obvious or subjugated in certain brands. Believe me, a lot of tweeking can be done with a good graphic EQ! And with enough EQ, you can pretty much make any pedal guitar, tonally, sound like any other. No, a good EQ won't do anything for sustain, but it will probably give you that "tone" you're looking for.
Lost in the mix? Well, some tones, especially very full "bassy" ones, won't do well in a large band where you're competing with a bass, and keyboards, multiple voices, and maybe other instruments that tend to "clutter" the sound. Nonetheless, everyone would have to admit that full sounds are in now. The old Emmons, Brumley, and Mooney sounds just aren't in favor anymore. (But they really "cut through" in the mix, didn't they? Even better than any sounds you're hearing today!)
Personally, I don't care <u>what</u> anyone plays. I focus on <u>how</u> they play! I'm not a "steel snob", and I'm also sure that my opinion probably won't change anyone's about the MSA, or any other brand, for that matter. I'm also not a great player, but I do know who is, and I know sound and tone...both theirs and mine! I don't think absolutes should be used to describe <u>any</u> brand, because it tends to color the opinions of newbies that have far more important things to think about. After over 40 years of playing steel I'm just as tickeled to hear a good player on a Carter, an old MSA, a Mullen, or a Fender, as I am on a Zum or an Emmons whatever.
The way I see it, telling someone (particularly a new player) that a _______ is the best guitar, and that some other brands can't cut it is kinda like telling a 16 year-old he should just get a BMW, and not even think about a Camaro or Mustang.
And just because you or I can't make that Mustang handle like a BMW doesn't mean someone else can't.
If the old MSA's easily got "lost in the mix", maybe someone should have told Curly or Reece. On second thought, that wouldn't have done much good because <u>they</u> didn't seem to have that problem, and both of those guys did a lotta playing on them "big wires" down at the bottom. The plywood MSA's weren't as good as the later models, but don't discount either as far as what they can do, sound-wise.
Another thing I want to bring up is this "EQ/overtones" thing. We steelers have a rather unique instrument in that it's quite limited (the tonal palette) compared to a straight guitar. We can't just switch to the neck pickup like the average lead man to get a fatter tone. Likewise, we can't combine the sound of two pickups out of phase to get that twangy "gut-bucket" sound...because we don't have two pickups! The design of the instrument limits what can be done with the sound. In essence, we're all playing solid-body guitars with just <u>one</u> pickup! (How many lead players do you know that would limit themselves to just ONE pickup?). The only way we pedal steelers can get different sounds is by picking in a different place or fashion...pretty limited by anyone's metrics, or by amp tone changes. Therefore, the tonal capabilities of the amp are absolutely paramount if we want to have access to the broadest palette of tones from our guitars. (Those who are content with one tone need not read any further.)
I've heard the argument about "overtones" of particular steels before, and it is only germane when using a regular amp. <u>All</u> steels produce overtones. The same tone controls in an amp that control the fundamental tones also control the overtones. That's just common sense, but most people don't think of that. They also think those overtones are set in stone, and in reality, nothing is further from the truth. The amp, if designed properly, has the power to control (to an extent, anyway) the overtones you actually hear. I'm of the opinion that all steels produce the same overtones, and that some overtones are just more obvious or subjugated in certain brands. Believe me, a lot of tweeking can be done with a good graphic EQ! And with enough EQ, you can pretty much make any pedal guitar, tonally, sound like any other. No, a good EQ won't do anything for sustain, but it will probably give you that "tone" you're looking for.
Lost in the mix? Well, some tones, especially very full "bassy" ones, won't do well in a large band where you're competing with a bass, and keyboards, multiple voices, and maybe other instruments that tend to "clutter" the sound. Nonetheless, everyone would have to admit that full sounds are in now. The old Emmons, Brumley, and Mooney sounds just aren't in favor anymore. (But they really "cut through" in the mix, didn't they? Even better than any sounds you're hearing today!)
Personally, I don't care <u>what</u> anyone plays. I focus on <u>how</u> they play! I'm not a "steel snob", and I'm also sure that my opinion probably won't change anyone's about the MSA, or any other brand, for that matter. I'm also not a great player, but I do know who is, and I know sound and tone...both theirs and mine! I don't think absolutes should be used to describe <u>any</u> brand, because it tends to color the opinions of newbies that have far more important things to think about. After over 40 years of playing steel I'm just as tickeled to hear a good player on a Carter, an old MSA, a Mullen, or a Fender, as I am on a Zum or an Emmons whatever.
The way I see it, telling someone (particularly a new player) that a _______ is the best guitar, and that some other brands can't cut it is kinda like telling a 16 year-old he should just get a BMW, and not even think about a Camaro or Mustang.
And just because you or I can't make that Mustang handle like a BMW doesn't mean someone else can't.
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Billy McCoy
- Posts: 229
- Joined: 10 Aug 2004 12:01 am
- Location: Ft. Worth, Texas, USA
- Contact:
I have played the following Steels:
Fessy's, Carters (old and new), Emmons(old and new), MCI, Zum, ZB, MSA (old and new) , EMCI, and countless others....
I can honestly say that when I play those guitars....I sound like ME.
Those guitars that are referred to as MUDDY...I find that most of the time it is the player and his EQ setting that makes it that way.
If you have a GOOD steel, a good amp and fresh strings, you will have a good clear sound. ...if any of the afore mention are substandard....especially strings, then you tend to loose frequencies and tone.
I have heard a guy here in town (Dallas) play an EMMONS....and his tone was way TOO bright. That doesn't mean all EMMONS guitars are too bright. That player, the way he plays, his rig and EQ is the real reason his tone was bright.
I heard REECE tonight at a rehearsal....sounds like he always does...perfect! TONE TO BURN.
Things to remember:
picks, the way you attack the strings, the bar, the way you hold the bar, pickups, strings, amp settings, EQ and not too much compression (as that thins out your sound), all of these things together make up the bigger picture of TONE.
a guitar alone cannot make tone at all...it has to be played.
b
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MSA Millennium D10, Walker Stereo Steel, Stone Tree Custom Tele, LINE 6 Vetta II and POD XT PRO
Fessy's, Carters (old and new), Emmons(old and new), MCI, Zum, ZB, MSA (old and new) , EMCI, and countless others....
I can honestly say that when I play those guitars....I sound like ME.
Those guitars that are referred to as MUDDY...I find that most of the time it is the player and his EQ setting that makes it that way.
If you have a GOOD steel, a good amp and fresh strings, you will have a good clear sound. ...if any of the afore mention are substandard....especially strings, then you tend to loose frequencies and tone.
I have heard a guy here in town (Dallas) play an EMMONS....and his tone was way TOO bright. That doesn't mean all EMMONS guitars are too bright. That player, the way he plays, his rig and EQ is the real reason his tone was bright.
I heard REECE tonight at a rehearsal....sounds like he always does...perfect! TONE TO BURN.
Things to remember:
picks, the way you attack the strings, the bar, the way you hold the bar, pickups, strings, amp settings, EQ and not too much compression (as that thins out your sound), all of these things together make up the bigger picture of TONE.
a guitar alone cannot make tone at all...it has to be played.
b
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MSA Millennium D10, Walker Stereo Steel, Stone Tree Custom Tele, LINE 6 Vetta II and POD XT PRO
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John McClung
- Posts: 5106
- Joined: 4 Aug 1998 11:00 pm
- Location: Olympia WA, USA
- Contact:
I played natural wood body MSA's for over 25 years, first a D-10 8+5, and then a D-12 10+10, highly customized by Tom Bradshaw, who worked miracles on it.
But in the past couple of years, I kept getting astonished at how much better some of the steels my students played sounded.
So I did very thorough A/B testing with my rig and several other brands, in my studio and on the bandstand, all factors the same, just swapped out guitars.
Sadly, many other brands simply sounded a lot better. Better tone, high end clarity, note definition, sustain, and much easier and louder harmonics.
A good deal on a 1991 mica Mullen D-12 came along, I bought it, and have totally been in love with both tone and playability. Part of the difference is the metal necks, I'm sure, but I feel like the guitar has personality in its sound, and extra "power" in the strings, the great tone just jumps out, I don't have to pick hard to get better tone like I had to on the MSA. Plus all the advantages mentioned in the preceding paragraph.
Now I actually got compliments for years on my tone on the MSA's (through a Webb) from fellow musicians. And I had Bill Lawrence pickups on the D-10, and then a TrueTone for E9 and Danny Shields for C6 on the D-12. But even with those enhancements (which weren't all that noticeable, oddly enough), there was just no life to the tone like there is in my Mullen.
I know MSA is exceptionally well built and reliable, but the older models don't have the ease of setup and changing that most modern guitars do. The older my D12 got, the more I feared the inevitable day I'd have to loosen a dozen rods just to move one change around. With 10+10 it gets pretty cramped and tough to maneuver!
I'm certainly not saying "don't get or play an MSA," I still think they're very good, but I've just belatedly become a tone freak and finally understood that instruments all have natural limitations, and for PSG, it's a whole host of mysterious factors.
Lastly, I think the new Millenniums are great guitars, though I haven't played one yet. And I have the utmost respect for Reece and his great current staff, they've really made some great refinements in their new steel.
But in the past couple of years, I kept getting astonished at how much better some of the steels my students played sounded.
So I did very thorough A/B testing with my rig and several other brands, in my studio and on the bandstand, all factors the same, just swapped out guitars.
Sadly, many other brands simply sounded a lot better. Better tone, high end clarity, note definition, sustain, and much easier and louder harmonics.
A good deal on a 1991 mica Mullen D-12 came along, I bought it, and have totally been in love with both tone and playability. Part of the difference is the metal necks, I'm sure, but I feel like the guitar has personality in its sound, and extra "power" in the strings, the great tone just jumps out, I don't have to pick hard to get better tone like I had to on the MSA. Plus all the advantages mentioned in the preceding paragraph.
Now I actually got compliments for years on my tone on the MSA's (through a Webb) from fellow musicians. And I had Bill Lawrence pickups on the D-10, and then a TrueTone for E9 and Danny Shields for C6 on the D-12. But even with those enhancements (which weren't all that noticeable, oddly enough), there was just no life to the tone like there is in my Mullen.
I know MSA is exceptionally well built and reliable, but the older models don't have the ease of setup and changing that most modern guitars do. The older my D12 got, the more I feared the inevitable day I'd have to loosen a dozen rods just to move one change around. With 10+10 it gets pretty cramped and tough to maneuver!
I'm certainly not saying "don't get or play an MSA," I still think they're very good, but I've just belatedly become a tone freak and finally understood that instruments all have natural limitations, and for PSG, it's a whole host of mysterious factors.
Lastly, I think the new Millenniums are great guitars, though I haven't played one yet. And I have the utmost respect for Reece and his great current staff, they've really made some great refinements in their new steel.
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Kevin Hatton
- Posts: 8173
- Joined: 3 Jan 2002 1:01 am
- Location: Buffalo, N.Y.
- Contact:
One thing that I have to agree with Donny about is the amp. Good sounding guitar on a bad amp= bad sound. Bad sounding guitar on a good amp=bad to passable. Good sounding guitar on a good amp=great sound. I think the amp makes a big difference, and most importantly knowing how to use it. I don't agree that any guitar can be made to sound great. Its really comes down to personal taste. <FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by Kevin Hatton on 29 November 2004 at 10:24 PM.]</p></FONT>
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Dave Grafe
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- Contact:
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Brian Henry
- Posts: 2806
- Joined: 7 Oct 2000 12:01 am
In my opinion there is no pedal steel that equals the MSA classic 3 plus 4. I have owned an LDG, a Zumsteel, 2 Sierras, a GFI. Last year I found this MSA classic, took it apart, cleaned it, replace delrin bearings, put in new fingers, put on an aluminum neck and a Bill Lawrence pick up. This axe is 30 years old but sounds and plays like brand new. It has a killer tone and sounds far superiorior to me than anything else I've ever played. Total price $950 including neck and pickup. Why would I want to replace it with one of my former inferior sounding guitars?
when i was learning p.s.g from one of my teachers
[don kates] he was playing a m.s.a d-10 vintage xl with B.L. pickups. thru a webb amp. outstaning tone . i all most bought that guitar great sound...
paul wade<FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by Paul Wade on 30 November 2004 at 04:17 AM.]</p></FONT>
[don kates] he was playing a m.s.a d-10 vintage xl with B.L. pickups. thru a webb amp. outstaning tone . i all most bought that guitar great sound...
paul wade
<FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by Paul Wade on 30 November 2004 at 04:17 AM.]</p></FONT>-
Jeff Agnew
- Posts: 741
- Joined: 18 Sep 1998 12:01 am
- Location: Dallas, TX
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Mike Perlowin
- Posts: 15171
- Joined: 4 Aug 1998 11:00 pm
- Location: Los Angeles CA
- Contact:
I have 2 comments. (Both of which I've said before.)
1- The laminate/mica MSAs and the Lacquer/maple ones have inherently differnet tones. I have one of each and they really sound quite distict from each other. As a matter of personal preference, I prefer the lacquer/maple one, but it's nice having two different sounded guitars for recording purposes.
2- If we make the analogy to 6 string guitars, the Emmons guitars and those that sound like it are like Telecasters, while the MSAs are like hollow body jazz guitars. There is no way to make either one sound like the other. If you want that Emmons sound, get a guitar that sounds like that. MSAs have a different sound. Just as that old Gibson Jazz guitar will never sound like a tele, so too an MSA will never sound like an Emmons.
The secret to making an MSA sound good is to bring our it's natural characteristics, and not try to make it sound like something it's not.
1- The laminate/mica MSAs and the Lacquer/maple ones have inherently differnet tones. I have one of each and they really sound quite distict from each other. As a matter of personal preference, I prefer the lacquer/maple one, but it's nice having two different sounded guitars for recording purposes.
2- If we make the analogy to 6 string guitars, the Emmons guitars and those that sound like it are like Telecasters, while the MSAs are like hollow body jazz guitars. There is no way to make either one sound like the other. If you want that Emmons sound, get a guitar that sounds like that. MSAs have a different sound. Just as that old Gibson Jazz guitar will never sound like a tele, so too an MSA will never sound like an Emmons.
The secret to making an MSA sound good is to bring our it's natural characteristics, and not try to make it sound like something it's not.
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Grant Johnson
- Posts: 802
- Joined: 23 Jun 2003 12:01 am
- Location: Nashville TN
- Contact:
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Billy McCoy
- Posts: 229
- Joined: 10 Aug 2004 12:01 am
- Location: Ft. Worth, Texas, USA
- Contact:
Hey Jeff,
Still playing that old Emmons Le Grande?
Well, if you gotta suffer through....that's
a good guitar to do it with.
Try turning the treble down....you're peeling paint off of my house (I'm 25 miles
away).
By the way, I was not referring to you.
Another cat passing through town on a gig.
Hope all is well with you.
e-mail me sometime.
b
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MSA Millennium D10, Walker Stereo Steel, Stone Tree Custom Tele, LINE 6 Vetta II and POD XT PRO
Still playing that old Emmons Le Grande?
Well, if you gotta suffer through....that's
a good guitar to do it with.
Try turning the treble down....you're peeling paint off of my house (I'm 25 miles
away).
By the way, I was not referring to you.
Another cat passing through town on a gig.
Hope all is well with you.
e-mail me sometime.
b
------------------
MSA Millennium D10, Walker Stereo Steel, Stone Tree Custom Tele, LINE 6 Vetta II and POD XT PRO
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Terry Sneed
- Posts: 4643
- Joined: 17 Feb 2004 1:01 am
- Location: Arkansas,
Tim, my first steel guitar was a 70 somethin MSA. I didn't like the tone at all, it was waay to mellow for me. but, I played another 70's somethin MSA about 4 months ago that had a good bright tone, and the pedal action was second to none. So I would buy an MSA in a minute, if it had the right pups and had good pedal action.
Terry
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Zum D10 /8x5 / session 500rd
steelin for my Lord
Terry
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Zum D10 /8x5 / session 500rd
steelin for my Lord
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Garth Highsmith
- Posts: 173
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Bob Carlucci
- Posts: 6965
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- Location: Candor, New York, USA