Learning Lap Steel vs Dobro

Andy Volk · Post by **Andy Volk** » 2 Mar 2016 1:42 pm

And, as Greg Booth has repeatedly demonstrated, simply dropping the low G to low E opens up lots of other opportunities for fuller harmonies.

Post by **Brad Bechtel** » 2 Mar 2016 2:04 pm

Agreed with you, Mike, although it's hard to find specific examples of Tom Morrell's dobro playing out there. There's Blue Lou, and I'm sure there are others.

I did a quick listen to some samples online and found these songs with dobro:

Stylin'
* Blue Lou
* As Time Goes By
* Nancy With the Laughing Face
Relaxin'
* Crazy Rhythm
How The West Was Swung Volume 11
* I Thought About You
* Wagon Wheels
* The Surrey With The Fringe On Top

Mark Eaton · Post by **Mark Eaton** » 2 Mar 2016 3:04 pm

Tom Morrell dobro on the Tommy Dorsey tune, Wagon Wheels:

http://www.westernswing.net/sites/defau ... Wheels.mp3

Great stuff, but mostly single string lines like a trombone or trumpet - but hey - it came from Tommy Dorsey, so that makes perfect sense!

The only thing I would say though the playing is absolutely on the money, I don't always care for the tone or timbre of the bullet bar on the dobro from many players and that might even include the legendary Tommy Morrell.

Can't get big chords on a G tuned dobro? Well, you can get every major chord in the dictionary and some full minors though not that many. And there are some other chords in different spots on the neck.

Garth Brooks isn't everyone's cup of tea, but we had a thread on this one a year or so ago. Bruce Bouton coming out from behind his pedal steel to do some standup with a strap lap steel in what sounds like Open G. As I wrote in an earlier post, Bruce is no doubt very comfortable on the back neck of his pedal steel, so if he is going to play some lap with the overdriven sound, why wouldn't he stick with C6th tuning?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n3osgTynhGY

I had some email communication with Bruce about the guitar he was playing from Scantic River Guitars in Maine, don't know the details but apparently these guys are now out of business. Too bad, they were building some nice lap steels.

Gary Meixner · Post by **Gary Meixner** » 2 Mar 2016 3:20 pm

Russell,

I think you will find that there is no universal answer to your question. And the only person who can answer that question for you is you.

For someone new to either instrument I would say from a technical standpoint the dobro and lap steel are far more a like than there are different. Playing either one will allow you to develop skills that will benefit your efforts on either instrument.

At some point you are probably going to find that one instrument does a better job of expressing what you hear in your head than the other - my bet is that one will be easier for you to play as well.

The same goes for tuning. Most are very similar, with a major triad at their core. As your skills develop you will gravitate towards a tuning that suits your ears. Somewhere along the way you will discover differences, and with these differences, opportunities that the other tuning may not offer.

If there is a specific style of music that turns you on go with the instrument and tuning that most players of that style use. To try establish one instrument over another as being easier to play is really selling both short.

Now as to which is more practical I might go with the reso as others have suggested.

Good luck,

Gary Meixner

Mark Eaton · Post by **Mark Eaton** » 2 Mar 2016 4:10 pm

Andy Volk cited the Cindy Cashdollar analogy in the difference between dobro vs. lap steel like a manual typewriter vs. an electric typewriter.

The majority of our membership can probably relate to that, but younger readers have likely never used either of those machines.

I prefer the Jerry Douglas version - he likens the dobro to a hand saw, and the electric lap steel is more like a chainsaw.

I also believe when he was talking about how learning the steel was taking his dobro playing backward, it was about the pedal steel.

I found an old post here that I wrote in 2011, allow me to quote myself:

The deal with Jerry Douglas and the pedal steel as I will paraphrase below - and he spoke at length about this in an interview he did for the short-lived PedalSteel.US magazine several years ago - was that he gave up on pedal steel because he felt it was pushing his dobro playing backwards. Not so much that it would permanently do anything like "ruin" his dobro playing, but during the process of learning it was effecting his dobro playing too much, specifically the agressive right hand.

And the dobro is what has always paid the rent and put food on the table for him, so he couldn't afford to have it mess with his technique.

Some of the great pedal steel players that are solid on dobro maybe have played both for decades. When Jerry took up the pedals he was already established as one of the very best on dobro, so maybe the learning process was like when a golfer tries to change his swing and it screws up his game for awhile before all the adjustments "take." In the case of Douglas, the equivalent of "messing with his swing" as a dobro player would be akin to messing with the swing of Tiger Woods back when he was still Tiger Woods.

My point for digging up my own historical quote is though the dobro and lap steel might be like hand saw vs. chainsaw and different techniques are required, it's even more different when you add pedal steel to the equation.

For most of us who have played both a lot of dobro and lap steel, I don't think it is any big deal going back and forth, but learning pedal steel and going back and forth between it and the dobro is something else again.

Howard Parker · Post by **Howard Parker** » 2 Mar 2016 4:47 pm

Mark Eaton wrote: I don't think it is any big deal going back and forth, but learning pedal steel and going back and forth between it and the dobro is something else again.

The superior contingent thank you!

(Be sure to check out the groovy ending)

h

Ulrich Sinn · Post by **Ulrich Sinn** » 2 Mar 2016 5:09 pm

Howard -

that's great!

While there I stumbled upon this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_NRYHuLefZc

chris ivey · Post by **chris ivey** » 2 Mar 2016 5:29 pm

ha ha mark. the most telling aspect of your old post
is that tiger woods was falling apart at least 5 years ago! that's funny.

Mark Eaton · Post by **Mark Eaton** » 2 Mar 2016 5:46 pm

Ulrich, the tribute evening from the National Endowment for the Arts to Mike Auldridge was a wonderful thing.

Chris, some years ago it seemed to be a forgone conclusion that Tiger would eclipse the record held by Jack Nicklaus for most wins in major tournaments, but it hasn't happened and pretty likely won't. The bigger they are, the harder they fall - for a number of reasons.

Howard, since you knew Mike pretty well, refresh my memory. When he decided to add pedal steel to the equation, and I'm thinking this would have been after he gave up his day job as a graphic artist in the early '80s, didn't he go down to his legendary basement and put in 10 to 12 hours a day of practice to make up for lost time?

Howard Parker · Post by **Howard Parker** » 2 Mar 2016 6:20 pm

Mark Eaton wrote: Howard, since you knew Mike pretty well, refresh my memory. When he decided to add pedal steel to the equation, and I'm thinking this would have been after he gave up his day job as a graphic artist in the early '80s, didn't he go down to his legendary basement and put in 10 to 12 hours a day of practice to make up for lost time?

Continuing off topic

I know that Mike took up the pedal steel in the early 1970's. I hadn't taken up dobro until the early 1980's.

When I really got to know him he was absolutely nuts about the steel. I'm sure there were stretches when he'd spend every other day, all day, wood shedding on steel.

Mike was responsible for me taking up psg. "take it up so I can give you lessons".

Hey, I don't practice 8 hours a day and see how I turned out!!

I think Lane has a similar Mike story that predates mine.

Since we started off really comparing lap steel and dobro Mike could really rock on his pre war Ricky tuned in G.

Here he is with Chesapeake, Moondance!

h

Stefan Robertson · Post by **Stefan Robertson** » 3 Mar 2016 4:40 am

Brad Bechtel wrote:
Stefan Robertson wrote:
Other than Stacy Phillips what others are there?
Assuming you're just talking jazz, I'd recommend Rich Arnold, Rob Ickes, Billy Cardine. Check out Bill Frisell and Jerry Douglas, or Bill Frisell and Greg Leisz.

My feathers aren't ruffled, I just think you have a very narrow view of what can be done with this instrument.

Nicely done Brad. I like what Rich did indeed really nice work. Inspiring but the others not so much.Not a fan of Ickes or JD. Find it always sounds the same. Whether they are playing blues/bluegrass Sorry

But Rich and Stacy really put down that diverse sound that is Jazz.
Sorry if I ruffled a few feathers but if you don't know by now I love the feedback whether good or bad as there is always something to learn.

From this discussion I have now learnt about Rich Arnold. Awesome.

Stefan Robertson · Post by **Stefan Robertson** » 3 Mar 2016 9:20 am

Mike Neer wrote:... just not big chords.

Maybe I should've clarified. But yes not big chords. You rely heavily on accompaniment.

And if I were limited to 6/8 strings I know I'd prefer the capability of being able to play chords as well.

Terry VunCannon · Post by **Terry VunCannon** » 3 Mar 2016 12:16 pm

I will say that when I use open E or D, I have full sounding chords, and easy minor chords by simply muting the 3rd string to voice the minor chords.

Ulrich Sinn · Post by **Ulrich Sinn** » 3 Mar 2016 2:51 pm

Not a fan of Ickes or JD. Find it always sounds the same.

Stefan -

you're regularly just killing me.
ROFLMAO.

Here is a definition for anathema: a ban or curse solemnly pronounced by ecclesiastical authority and accompanied by excommunication.

Mark Eaton · Post by **Mark Eaton** » 3 Mar 2016 3:01 pm

I was trying to find the words earlier today - but in my flabbergasted state came up empty.

Thank you Ulrich, you filled the role admirably!

Mark Eaton · Post by **Mark Eaton** » 3 Mar 2016 3:20 pm

Terry VunCannon wrote:I will say that when I use open E or D, I have full sounding chords, and easy minor chords by simply muting the 3rd string to voice the minor chords.

In order not to confuse a newbie reading this - though I'm sure this thread is already confusing enough - if I understand correctly what you are writing Terry is that in Open D and Open E, by muting the 3rd string which also happens to be the 3rd note of the major scale in the most common versions of those tunings - you aren't really playing a full minor chord, but you are implying a minor chord by leaving out the 3rd, or what is typically referred to as a "power chord" which is neither major or minor.

Terry VunCannon · Post by **Terry VunCannon** » 3 Mar 2016 4:52 pm

Well said Mark...I said it will voice the minor chord. When playing a song the human ear will hear it as a minor when needed.

Mike Neer · Post by **Mike Neer** » 3 Mar 2016 5:17 pm

Really to get the most out of dobro and lap steel, slaning is an absoslute must, especially in the case of dobro, where in order to get anything resembling a dominant chord made up of more than 2 notes, you'll need a good understanding of that. I think it's one of the things that really humanizes the instrument, because perfection is very elusive.

Stefan Robertson · Post by **Stefan Robertson** » 3 Mar 2016 5:32 pm

Ulrich Sinn wrote:
Not a fan of Ickes or JD. Find it always sounds the same.
Stefan -

you're regularly just killing me.
ROFLMAO.

Here is a definition for anathema: a ban or curse solemnly pronounced by ecclesiastical authority and accompanied by excommunication.

Anathema!!!!

Thanks for that Ulrich. We went from talking about opinions on a tuning to this.

Catch you on the flip side. Not interested in personal attacks.

Ulrich Sinn · Post by **Ulrich Sinn** » 3 Mar 2016 5:56 pm

Stefan -

This was a joke!

I get it what you're saying: I much more like playing bluegrass than listening to it.

Still, I apologize if I hurt any feelings. Religious or otherwise!!!

Stefan Robertson · Post by **Stefan Robertson** » 4 Mar 2016 6:23 am

Ulrich Sinn wrote:Stefan -

This was a joke!

I get it what you're saying: I much more like playing bluegrass than listening to it.

Still, I apologize if I hurt any feelings. Religious or otherwise!!!

No worries. Ta

Mark Eaton · Post by **Mark Eaton** » 4 Mar 2016 11:50 am

Mike Neer wrote:Really to get the most out of dobro and lap steel, slaning is an absoslute must, especially in the case of dobro, where in order to get anything resembling a dominant chord made up of more than 2 notes, you'll need a good understanding of that. I think it's one of the things that really humanizes the instrument, because perfection is very elusive.

Understanding what you are trying to accomplish with some of the "stretchier" slants on a dobro is one thing, playing them in tune is another.

The majority of dobros have a scale length of 25 inches and playing many of the slants in tune on about the first seven frets is a prescription for some serious woodshed time before said slants are exposed to the world.

Some of the old timey dobro players would go crazy with certain slants, and they sometimes would strike me as sounding a little dissonant, and maybe flat out of tune.

Some find that there is a certain "charm" to that sound, it seems to harken back to another time.

For myself - sometimes it makes me wince.

Dom Franco · Post by **Dom Franco** » 4 Mar 2016 5:08 pm

I have so called "Perfect Pitch" basically a well trained ear, and out of tune slants drive me nuts!

I have several 2 note slant positions that I frequently use with 99.9% accuracy. I have a couple of 3 note slants that I rarely attempt because I can only hit them "perfectly" in tune maybe 75% of the time.

It's just not worth it to me to ruin a good arrangement with sour notes. I'd rather play a single string or partial chord then botch a slant.

JMHO
Dom

Sam White · Post by **Sam White** » 13 Mar 2016 5:37 pm

I just gave up on Pedal Steel after 19 years of trying to play Pedal. I now play Dobro tuned GBD GBD. My Lap Steel is a Dyna Lap 6 string and it is tuned C-6 and I have more fun playing both of these two Instruments. I feel i waisted my time playing the Steel as I never got any where near being good on it.I'm 79 and wish I had played these back in 1997 when I first tryed to play Steel guitar. I use my RV-3 and a Hinton Volume pedal with a Fender Frontman 25 and a friend change the speaker in it and it sounds great and also sounds close to a pedal Steel.
Sam White