D-10 or U-12 ?

Grant Johnson · From: Nashville TN

I have been spending much time on the E9th tuning and want to jump into the C6/B6 territory. I find that I really like the "swingy" sound of 6th chords and passages. I am determined to get a U-12 or D-10 within the next year. It seems the U-12 has the advantage of lightness and portability, whereas the D-10 has more options for playing...
Are there other factors that I am not considering? Thanks!
Grant

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www.bigsmokey.com

David L. Donald · From: Koh Samui Island, Thailand

Lightness for sure of the S-12s

But I am also planning on gettin a U-12 style 7+5 because they have more pedals and levers than S-10s which are mostly E9. 3+4

The 12s are mostly E9 extended or Unis, and unis have enough levers to take most any tuning you want to put on them.

Most likely I will be adding a Uni, and it will spend some time as Bb6 I am sure. I want 8+8

I will keep the D-10 though.

[This message was edited by David L. Donald on 29 September 2004 at 10:47 AM.]

Pete Burak · From: Portland, OR USA

Untill you get another axe, you might want to pick up one of those "Playing 6th on E9th" videos.
You can do alot of 6th sounding stuff on a standard S10 E9th with either the E's lowered (B6th), or A+B enguaged (A6th).
I'm an S12U fan myself, but D10 is fine too.
I recently made an S10U out of an S10 E9th, so that might be a possibility for you too.

Jerry Hayes · From: Virginia Beach, Va.

Hey Grant,
I'm curious about the "C6th has more options for playing".... The only thing I can think of is Doug Jernigan's "Bonnie Marie" which is played on both necks. Other than that, I can't think of another playing option a C6th neck had that a U-12 didn't. All that said, I played a U-12 for a lot of years and then went back to an extended E9 type of universal by dropping the 12th string B and putting the 9th string back in but tuning it to C#. I still have the usual 7 floor pedals and 5 knee levers but I'm finding a lot of stuff on the 12 string E9 which is really swing and jazz flavored voicings without even using the pedals. Good luck in whatever you decide to do and have a great day....JH

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Livin' in the Past and the Future with a 12 string Mooney Universal tuning.

[This message was edited by Jerry Hayes on 29 September 2004 at 11:33 AM.]

Grant Johnson · From: Nashville TN

Thanks Guys.
I have been working on my 6th style playing by flatting my E's using my inside left knee lever (B6) and also using my "A" pedal (E6). I could use some more direction so I will definitely check out some of those "6 style in E9" videos...
Thanks again for the U12 opinions!
Grant

Ron Randall · From: Dallas, Texas, USA

Grant,
Before you decide, check out this article. http://www.b0b.com/infoedu/future1.htm

Good luck

Ron

James Quackenbush · From: Pomona, New York, USA

Grant,
I was in the same dilema a while back..I loved listening to "Swing" but could not play the C6 neck on a D-10 ...I was very frustrated, and the C6 neck was nothing more than a device to put string marks on my arm's while I was playing the E9 neck....While there are video's out there that show how to play more 6th type music on an E9th neck, I would go ( and did ) with a U-12....You can start with an extended E9 if you desire, or you could also try out the Jeff Newman method which I found to be GREAT in understanding the steel, but also made it very easy to play either Swing or Country on the same instrument ...You can go back and forth between E9 and B6 if you leave the pedal that drop's your "E's" unlocked !!....It's really a lot of fun, and is much easier ( it was for me ) to grasp than trying to figure out a whole new neck , not to mention, the smoothe transition when going from E9 to B6 while playing..
Again, this is very subjective....Some players grew up around D-10's , and it has been an industry standard....My personal feeling is if some of the Legends in pedal steel started on, and played U-12's , that the U-12 would be the industry standard !!.... To me , the natural evolution from E9 would be to go to an Extended E9, and then to a U-12....It just makes sense to me ...The first thing to do , and the most inexpesive thing to do, would be to check out the video's that folks mention ...That may do it for you .Good Luck whatever you choose

Jeff Lampert · From: queens, new york city

John Daugherty · From: Rolla, Missouri, USA

Grant, the C6 neck does not offer more options. The U12 has the option of using all pedals and levers on both tunings. You also have the option of switching tunings as you play, by pushing the knee lever.
If you spend enough time with a U12 you will discover a lot of amazing new stuff. Unfortunately we don't live long enough to learn it all.......JD

Bob Hoffnar · From: Austin, Tx

I started on E9 then went to a U12 for a few years. After that I checked out a D10 and found that in my case the D10 was a much better option. To many compromises on to many levels with the U12 for me. The D10 is more simple for my mind to deal with.

Make sure that you get the opinions of some full time players in person. The forum gives a distorted view of this issue.

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Bob
intonation help

bob grossman · From: Visalia CA USA

I'm a bedroom player but have the following opinion anyhow:

1. The D string on E9 is almost worth the additional neck.

2. Having to hold KL in to play "6th" stuff prohibits using that knee for two other possible changes.

3. Yes, one can switch between "tunings" easily, but in an entirely different key.

FWIW

Al Marcus · From: Cedar Springs,MI USA (deceased)

Bob-My real Universal plays both E9 and E6 stuff. No need to hold knee lever in, no lock, and all in the SAME Key. And I raise the 9th string C# to D on a knee lever that drops the 2nd String.

Jerry- Using the C# on the 9th string is a very good idea. You can then get the D by using the knee lever that drops the 2nd string.

I don't recommend my E9-E6 Real Universal to most players. I can Email the chart if anyone is interested.

The main reason is there is no Tab or Records available to learn from. So at this point in time, it is easier to go with E9/B6 or D10 E9/C6......al

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My Website..... www.cmedic.net/~almarcus/

Sidney Malone · From: Buna, TX

Well this debate is endless but my opinion is that either tuning has more possibilities than most of us will ever comprehend.

The D-10 legends are obvious and blow me away with their playing. Then when I listen to people like Reece, David & Joe Wright, Johnny Cox, Junior Knight and the other greats that play U-12 I'm just as blown away.

I don't know which one has the most possibilities and I think any differences would be insignificant to 99% of the players.

I chose the U-12 to have one big tuning and I don't "think" about them as E9/B6. It's just all there at my fingertips. I didn't play C6 to start with, so it was an easy choice for me. I went from an E9 to a U-12.

Good Luck!

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MSA Millennium S-12U
Fessy S-12U
Walker Stereo Steel, Hilton Pedal

David Doggett · Posted 30 Sep 2004 8:40 am

I agree with Jeff. The U12 is a related but new and different tuning compared to D10 E9 and C6.

There are two approaches to a uni. One attempts to exactly duplicate everything on a D10. This approach typically includes a locking E lower lever (which locks the tuning into the B6 mode for a whole song or a verse, whatever), and two separate clusters for the left knee. Even this approach cannot quite duplicate a D10, which can have the right knee levers working both necks.

The other approach is to consider the uni a new neck with E9 and B6 integrated into it, both with extra strings and pedals/levers. This approach typically does not use a lock on the E lower lever (because you want to use it or not from note to note), and trys to make do with a single cluster for the left knee, so that you have instant access to all of the left levers without switching your knee between clusters. Some players compensate by having 5 or 6 levers in this single cluster. But of course you could put 5 or 6 levers on each of two left knee clusters on a D10 (or uni with two left clusters) for a total of 10 or 12 left knee levers.

So even though I play a uni, I accept the fact that there is about 10% of the pedals and knees of one of the necks of a D10 that you cannot get on a uni. But still, from note to note you have the 100% of one neck and the 90% of the other neck available, or 190%. This means you have swapped the 10% you cannot get for the extra 90% that is now always available without switching necks. And, most importantly, you now have a new integrated tuning with 190% of the capabilities of either of the other two. The two modes are now related. The B6 I chord is at the IV chord fret of E9, and the E9 I chord is at the V chord fret of B6. This latter is handy for resolving the V chord (B6 mode) into the I chord (E9 mode). There are other related changes like this all over the neck. The B pedal of E9 changes B6 to a B7 tuning. A uni is a whole new world, much of it the same as a D10, and much of it completely new and different. It is more complicated in some ways, and simpler in some ways. It is more different than one would imagine just thinking of it as exactly duplicating E9 and C6. It actually does much more than that, but also less (the lost 10%).

[This message was edited by David Doggett on 30 September 2004 at 10:02 AM.]

Pete Burak · From: Portland, OR USA

FWIW, If I ever get a double neck, I'll tune it to E9th and B6th.

[This message was edited by Pete Burak on 30 September 2004 at 12:09 PM.]

Travis Bernhardt · From: Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada

I started out on an Extended E9, and later converted my guitar to a Universal. Having used it for a while now, I really think that the double-neck system would work better for me. That D string is just too darned useful. Of course, I suppose I could go to a thirteen or fourteen-string Universal, and add the D string back in... A twelve-string Universal is just not enough, if you ask me.

-Travis

Donny Hinson · From: Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.

One advantage no one has mentioned, when you break a string on a D10, you still have a complete set available on the other neck. That's saved me more than once!

Unless you take the easy way out, and use them "big" strings, there's nothing more humbling than trying to do the "Together Again" ride on the E9th with no 5th string!

Bobby Lee · From: Cloverdale, California, USA

Yeah, but we don't break strings anymore, Donny.

I think that a D-12 is best.

David L. Donald · From: Koh Samui Island, Thailand

Ok ,Lot sof good thoughts here.

Sidney mentioned several U-12 players.
I have fortunately heard all of them except Juinor Knight this year or last.
I think I heard some of Junior last year.. but it's a fuzzy memory.

I also played David Wright's personal steel for 20 minutes uninterupted at ISGC this year. Nothing fuzzy here.
I am by nature a jazz head, who also plays country too,
and so often want to, at times, mix these elements.

And also I want to move the smallest lightest package on the road.

I had played 2 Uni's earlier this summer, and found them interesting though not as natural to play as my C6.
Plus an extended E-9 which seemed more like an S-10 E9, but with extra voicing possiblities.

I did hear it in Chris Brook's hands doing some fine jazz stuff, so it is a cooler tuning than vanila E9.

I had not tried the Bb6 tuning and was very curious,
but when I got on David Wright' steel I was really quite stunned at how powerful it was.

In 20 minutes I had not come close to mapping all the possiblities that I was hearing up to that point.
It really seemed I could go in many directions.

The Uni- to me seems an E9 that can become more like a C6.

The Bb6 was the opposite for me.
A very hip jazz tuning, that could go country very quickly.

Almost the inverse philosphy to the typical Uni, very possibly because of Reece's Texas roots, jazzy swing WITH country.

So I am leaning towards that pretty heavily at the moment. I don't think I could be much happier if DW's steel were to magically be transported here for a month.

Any tuning you pick for a single neck should have enough pedals and levers to enable it to cover your harmonic choices whatever they maybe.

If it's what has gone before, then follow the leader of your choice also.
If not then study and create the harmonic complexity for which you search.

Johnny Cox played a new version of his Uni tuning at ISGC ;
a rather ballsy thing to do I might add,
and he admited he was stiill learning it.
He still also sounded quite amazing. And it sounded like it covered a lot of bases.

Even the long time great players are twiddling about under the hood and not staying in one place indefinitely.

I have to remember to ask what this new copedent is.

DD Over and out.

[This message was edited by David L. Donald on 30 September 2004 at 04:09 PM.]

John McGann · From: Boston, Massachusetts, USA * R.I.P.

Reece's article is incredibly well written and thought out. Serious food for thought!

I would love to check out that Bb6 uni concept, I think a bit along DD's lines and would really dig the 6th home base that can switch to the 9th sound rather than vice versa...too bad it's not easy to get ahold of one for a few months to check out!

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http://www.johnmcgann.com
Info for musicians, transcribers, technique tips and fun stuff.

Joaquin Murphey solos book info and some free stuff : http://www.johnmcgann.com/joaquin.html

Jim Smith · From: Midlothian, TX, USA

Sigi Meissner · From: Duebendorf, Switzerland

I have discovered one additional advantage which I apriciate very much: Having 2 necks with 2 different tunings is like having 2 different instruments. Sometimes I feel burned out after a two night gig with 90% E9th playing. After that I feel much more motivation to work on the C6th
Do other players feel the same?

Emmons Legrande LL, Mullen D10, Nash 400

CrowBear Schmitt · From: Ariege, - PairO'knees, - France

i've never tried a 12/13/or14 string single neck psg so i don't have nuthin' to say bout'em
on the other hand i dig the D10 cause i find that 2 necks are better than 1
2 tunings, 2 copedants, 2 axes, 2 styles and more weight
every thang in Life comes in 2s
like Donny H mentions, when you break a string that other neck sure comes in handy

Bobby Lee · From: Cloverdale, California, USA

I've heard that string breakage on pedal steels was a real problem back in the 20th century.

Sidney Malone · From: Buna, TX

I think that might be true Bob, cause I had one. I'm glad those days are over!!

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MSA Millennium S-12U
Fessy S-12U
Walker Stereo Steel, Hilton Pedal

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