changers that change the scale

Hans Holzherr · Post by **Hans Holzherr** » 28 Sep 2004 1:28 am

With those shifting non-string-breaking changers as in the Excel, Anapeg, etc. the scale for a raised or lowered string changes by a very small amount, i.e. the fret positions are no longer correct. The higher up the neck the bar is positioned, the more the fret geometry will affect the frequency ratio between the raised/lowered string and a non-activated string. For instance, a lowered string will have a shorter scale, so it will note sharper in the higher neck positions, distorting what was a pure interval in the open position.

So much for the theory. Question: Is this effect perceivable, and if so, enough to be called "a little out of tune"?

Hans

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 28 Sep 2004 7:33 am

I thought it would, but Carl Dixon, who has a more critical ear for pitch than anyone I know, swears that it does not.

Maybe it's because the changer movement is very small. That's the only thing I can figure.

Jim Palenscar · Post by **Jim Palenscar** » 28 Sep 2004 9:22 am

I'll never forget an article that I read on this subject- I think it might have been in the PSGA newsletter- where Winnie Winston was talking about this very same subject. His comment- semi-paraphrased- was something like- "Tom Brumley, who has ears like a bat, says it does not affect the intonation" when referring to the fore-and-aft movement of the changer fingers in this type of design (Anapeg and newer Excel models). I have both as well as other more standard changer steel guitars, and play just as out of tune up high on all of them

David L. Donald · Post by **David L. Donald** » 28 Sep 2004 1:16 pm

When talking tension, you aren't talking more than very tiny movement.
in fractions of mm I believe.

If you put a reference scale next to your C6 string 10 and look at it dropping 3 half steps, it is barely a winding on the string.

And less on higher strings. I also suspect that a linear movement verses the arcing one on most changers would require less distance.

Now if we consider that we are fluidly dealing with the bar, it seems too small to matter.
Ed packard would have something prcice I imaging.

Jim Peters · Post by **Jim Peters** » 28 Sep 2004 1:23 pm

Along the same line of thought, how is it that using a pedal or lever stays in tune in the higher octave? For example; 5th fret, a+b, gives a D chord on 3,4 and 5. Now go up an octave, 17th fret, all else the same, and the change is still in tune! I have never understood this. JimP

Bob Hoffnar · Post by **Bob Hoffnar** » 28 Sep 2004 1:37 pm

The obvious answer would be that when you tune the changer it moves when you tune the note. So in effect you are tuning the movement of the changer. The relationship of notes across the neck as you go up is always relative so its possible that a moving changer might even be more in tune than a purely stretched string.

I might be missing something here but after looking one over that is what I came up with.

Jim, I have found that as I go up the neck the intonation changes pretty drasticly on my pedal steels. Its barely in the ballpark past the 15th fret. I have found it to be one of the real hassels involved when it comes to playing the steel in tune. Thats why I gave up worrying about tuners and frets and spend my time improving my ears.

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Bob
intonation help

[This message was edited by Bob Hoffnar on 28 September 2004 at 02:44 PM.]

Hans Holzherr · Post by **Hans Holzherr** » 28 Sep 2004 3:29 pm

Sure glad I asked..... thanks. Bob, when I received my Carter I noticed that one of the strings was quite out of tune beyond the 12th fret. Then I noticed that the twisted end of the string was beginning right on top of the changer finger. I replaced it with a string with a shorter end - problem solved.

Hans

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 28 Sep 2004 4:27 pm

My own thoughts...

I think Bob has the right idea. When you use a pedal, you're actually making a string change from one note to another, it's as simple as that. Remember, a pedal pulling a string is no different than changing a note at the tuning-key. If you retune the open "E" string to "F", that 1-note change is the same at the 12th fret, or any other fret for that matter.

As to the guitars like the Excel and Anapeg that change tones by pulling (wherein the string length actually changes), I think the same thing applies...a 1-note change is a 1-note change, and that's that. Differences caused by the string length change must just be too small to notice, lest these guitars would be unplayable up there in "Hughey-land", and we know (or at least we've heard from reliable sources like Tom Brumley and Carl Dixon) that that's not the case.

Michael Johnstone · Post by **Michael Johnstone** » 28 Sep 2004 7:29 pm

I thought that kind of changer must surely throw the guitar out of tune but such is not the case on my Excel. On the contrary,it is the most "in-tune" guitar I've owned or played - especially in the highest registers. It's uncanny really and a real joy to play. Decades of struggling and compromising with intonation problems on Buds,MSAs,PPs,ZBs,Sierras etc,etc are....OVER!
-MJ-

Bob Hoffnar · Post by **Bob Hoffnar** » 28 Sep 2004 8:10 pm

Michael,
Thats what I'm wondering about with the moving changer thing. It would seem to me that maybe it would be much more in tune than a standard pedalsteel changer. Its like how guitars have adjustable bridges for each string.
Right now I'm struggling with tuning my steel open or maybe I tune it with the bar down around the 8th fret.
Its always a compromise. Because each different gauge string rings different as you go up the neck there are tuning problems all over the place. And this is without any pedals ! Any of you guys don't know what I'm talking about try swapping your 6th string from a wound to a plain. One of leans sharp as you head up there and the other leans flat.

Do you think that the moving changer could be used in the same way as an adjustable bridge ?

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Bob
intonation help

Dean Parks · Post by **Dean Parks** » 28 Sep 2004 9:30 pm

Bob-

Intonate-able like a guitar, good thought, but then there's still a problem ... For example, if string 3 needs a "forward" correction... as you go up the neck, the %age of that correction changes (becomes more drastic, in this case, sharper; an overcorrection), and that has to hurt!

-dean-[This message was edited by Dean Parks on 28 September 2004 at 11:45 PM.]

Roy Ayres · Post by **Roy Ayres** » 29 Sep 2004 7:14 am

I have a brand new Excel that was delivered to me about 3 weeks ago at the convention in St. Louis. The changer is Mitsuo's latest design -- even more advanced than the changer on Bill Stafford's new 14 string Excel. I have pulls that change strings by as much as three half streps. Raising or lowering a string one half step I can barely see any lengthening of the string. Raising my B string three half steps to a D lengthens the string approximately the same amount as the width of a fret. I play one arrangement that goes up to the 17th fret and uses that 3-step pull, and I don't hear any intonation problem. I'm sure there is some "out of tuneness" but it's imperceptable -- not enough to waste time talking about.

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richard burton · Post by **richard burton** » 29 Sep 2004 10:07 am

The obvious thing to do is to plug the steel in to a electronic tuner.
Lets deal with the third string, for the sake of argument.
Tune the third string open to G#.
Press pedal B and tune the string to A.
Release pedal B.
Place the bar at the 12th fret until the tuner is registering G#.
Without moving the bar, press the B pedal.
As the scale length has grown longer, I would expect that the tuner should register slightly flat of A.
R B.