Keyless vs Keyed

admin · Post by **b0b** » 16 Jun 2015 7:56 am

Everyone has different preferences, Donny. I don't think there are "definite advantages" in tone or playability, but people who prefer keyless have good reasons.

I suspect that the reason top Nashville players don't prefer them has more to do with tradition than anything else. You don't see Steinberger basses in Nashville, even though (almost) everyone agrees they are fine instruments.

George Redmon · Post by **George Redmon** » 16 Jun 2015 8:27 am

And let's stop with the nasty filthy language private messages I'm getting from a certain person in this conversation. It's one thing to disagree, it's another to send people filthy private messages because you disagree.

Brint Hannay · Post by **Brint Hannay** » 16 Jun 2015 8:36 am

(Note: The following was typed before the preceding post appeared, and is not in response to that post.)

The problem is that the most emphatic keyless advocates argue that keyless design is superior period, as an objective fact, which inevitably at least appears to imply that anyone who fails to buy into it has an inferior understanding of things, which understandably elicits some backlash.

What is important to a player of a musical instrument may include, but goes beyond, quantifiable criteria.

Ian Rae · Post by **Ian Rae** » 16 Jun 2015 8:52 am

Throughout the history of musical instruments, supposed technical improvements have been taken up universally, selectively or not at all. Tradition plays an important part.

If you ask a brass player whether piston or rotary valves are superior, he will tell you it depends. German clarinettists' instruments work better than French ones, and vice versa. I could go on (but it's o.k., I won't)

Sonny Jenkins · Post by **Sonny Jenkins** » 16 Jun 2015 11:00 am

One thing can be assumed,,,keyless players are not "herd followers". We walk our own path,,,or we wouldn't be playing keyless. As to "if keyless is so great why don't the biggies play them",,,,I (and obviously other keyless players) don't really care what the Buddy, Paul,,,or whoever plays,,,we've got an agreement,,,,I won't copy them if they won't copy me,,,,LOL.

mike nolan · Post by **mike nolan** » 16 Jun 2015 11:17 am

I have owned both keyed and keyless... I have not had any problem with either system. The keyless guitars were from Williams, and Lamar. Of the two, I liked the Lamar implementation better aesthetically... functionally, both worked fine. The modern Williams keyless uses the same hex wrench for everything, nylon tuners, tuning at the keypad, and attaching strings.

Rick Collins · Post by **Rick Collins** » 16 Jun 2015 12:08 pm

The principle difference that the keyed steel guitars are more beautiful (top view) is for their asymmetry.
...front view, just about all are asymmetric anyway __ all pedal rods on the left side (player's view).
Both model types can be good instruments in the right hands.

chris ivey · Post by **chris ivey** » 16 Jun 2015 12:40 pm

Sonny Jenkins wrote:,keyless players are not "herd followers". We walk our own path,,,or we wouldn't be playing keyless. ,,we've got an agreement,,,,I won't copy them if they won't copy me,,,,LOL.

ha...now that i've had my shot of brandy i'm ready to say...subsets within subsets.
steel players in general have walked their own path for decades. now, with the steel forum, we find that there are little oddball groupings among the larger group of oddballs. it's all cool!.
my only issue is, when i want to tweak the pitch of a string while i'm playing, i don't want to have to grab a wrench.

Sonny Jenkins · Post by **Sonny Jenkins** » 16 Jun 2015 2:12 pm

Seems the "grab a wrench" has always been a contention,,,,,do you grab a wrench to tune at end plate? Actually my nylon tuner wrench and keyless tuner wrench are one and the same,,as are Kline, Lamar and Willys. But hey,,,to each his own,,for sure I'm not advocating ANYONE should change (I don't think any of the keyless players are suggesting anyone "change"),,just stating my position and preference. Keyless to the core

Rich Upright · Post by **Rich Upright** » 16 Jun 2015 2:53 pm

I have been playing steel for 30 years; a good portion of that professionally. My most difficult task to date is my never ending quest for what I deem to be the perfect tone. I have gone through steels,amps,effects, tried different picks & bars; tried bending my picks a certain way; etc. The closest I have come to my "tone" was with my '66 bolt on Emmons D-10, & my 70s MSA Classic D-10. Like an idiot, I sold both steels. Having no experience with keyless other than playing a Kline & Sierra, I don't know anything about how well the mechanics work; I just know that the tone I love is that aluminum neck resonance that just can't be gotten with a keyless. Then again; maybe it ain't the key/keyless aspect that affects the sound; maybe it's because they all have wooden necks, & with the exception of MSA & Dekley, & certain Sho-Buds, I just prefer an aluminum neck type of sound. They (keyless)
have their own sound, & it's a good sound; it just ain't "my" sound.

chris ivey · Post by **chris ivey** » 16 Jun 2015 3:22 pm

Rich Upright wrote: I just know that the tone I love is that aluminum neck resonance that just can't be gotten with a keyless. Then again; maybe it ain't the key/keyless aspect that affects the sound; maybe it's because they all have wooden necks, & with the exception of MSA & Dekley, & certain Sho-Buds, I just prefer an aluminum neck type of sound.

a little ambiguous. you like aluminum neck sound except for wood necks that sound good but not keyless wood necks...?

Jack Wilson · Post by **Jack Wilson** » 16 Jun 2015 3:36 pm

Some keyless systems do not require a wrench and as far as pro players Buddy Emmons, Tom Brumley, and Joe Wright are pros. Tom Brumley told me the Anapeg was the only guitar he ever owned that didn't have cabinet drop. I have seen keyless guitars with wood and aluminum necks so that would not be a reason.

Tom Quinn · Post by **Tom Quinn** » 16 Jun 2015 3:45 pm

Brint Hannay wrote:(Note: The following was typed before the preceding post appeared, and is not in response to that post.)

The problem is that the most emphatic keyless advocates argue that keyless design is superior period, as an objective fact, which inevitably at least appears to imply that anyone who fails to buy into it has an inferior understanding of things, which understandably elicits some backlash.

What is important to a player of a musical instrument may include, but goes beyond, quantifiable criteria.

Exactly. The snideness of a few promoting keyless guitars gets really old after a while, like anyone who does not share their belief system is a moron, unable to comprehend their failure as musicians to embrace a new reality. The arrogance is really offensive after awhile.

Look, I listen to tunes from the past and I don't hear cabinet drop or sour notes from the steel in the band. I hear great musicians and great tone.

I may not have the chops I had when I quit the night life 35 years go but when I plug in my new-to-me '71 push pull (thank you Tommy Auldridge) into my venerable '74 Session 400 I hear that same tone unique to these old guitars. That's good enough for me.

Richard Sinkler · Post by **Richard Sinkler** » 16 Jun 2015 4:50 pm

Brint Hannay wrote:(Note: The following was typed before the preceding post appeared, and is not in response to that post.)

The problem is that the most emphatic keyless advocates argue that keyless design is superior period, as an objective fact, which inevitably at least appears to imply that anyone who fails to buy into it has an inferior understanding of things, which understandably elicits some backlash.

What is important to a player of a musical instrument may include, but goes beyond, quantifiable criteria.

The same thing with push-pull players.

Jack Goodson · Post by **Jack Goodson** » 16 Jun 2015 5:16 pm

I have a emmons pp and a lashley legrande, but for some reason I usually take this one out....it tunes with your fingers just like a keyed guitar, although you hardly ever have to....thanks jack....(I use a pickup that reads14.5)

Rich Upright · Post by **Rich Upright** » 16 Jun 2015 5:59 pm

chris ivey wrote:
Rich Upright wrote: I just know that the tone I love is that aluminum neck resonance that just can't be gotten with a keyless. Then again; maybe it ain't the key/keyless aspect that affects the sound; maybe it's because they all have wooden necks, & with the exception of MSA & Dekley, & certain Sho-Buds, I just prefer an aluminum neck type of sound.
a little ambiguous. you like aluminum neck sound except for wood necks that sound good but not keyless wood necks...?

Let me re-phrase: I like the aluminum neck sound over the wooden neck sound generally; but the only wooden neck steels whose sound I liked was an MSA Classic or a Dekley.

Rich Upright · Post by **Rich Upright** » 16 Jun 2015 6:05 pm

Look at it this way--whenever you see any of he "biggies" playing, they are usually playing a keyhead, aluminum neck guitar...Zum, Franklin, Mullen, Emmons, etc.

At least that has been MY observation.

George Redmon · Post by **George Redmon** » 16 Jun 2015 7:20 pm

Sonny, are you still building your keyless (lap) non pedal steel guitars?

Rich Upright · Post by **Rich Upright** » 16 Jun 2015 7:33 pm

Richard Sinkler wrote:
Brint Hannay wrote:(Note: The following was typed before the preceding post appeared, and is not in response to that post.)

The problem is that the most emphatic keyless advocates argue that keyless design is superior period, as an objective fact, which inevitably at least appears to imply that anyone who fails to buy into it has an inferior understanding of things, which understandably elicits some backlash.

What is important to a player of a musical instrument may include, but goes beyond, quantifiable criteria.
The same thing with push-pull players.

There are many who would believe that Push-pull is the ultimate tone. I am one of them.

Paul Redmond · Post by **Paul Redmond** » 16 Jun 2015 8:33 pm

Hans - My On-Trak's are only 27.50" long, have a 24.50" scale, and will hold nine pedals.
PRR

admin · Post by **b0b** » 16 Jun 2015 11:08 pm

I think "tone" is overrated. Chops are more important. You can't buy a good sound. You have to play right to get a good sound.

Just my opinion.

A bad player on an Emmons push-pull still sounds bad. A good player has a good sound on any steel guitar he touches. Keyed vs. keyless doesn't change that.

Charlie McDonald · Post by **Charlie McDonald** » 17 Jun 2015 12:57 am

I do not think I could tell the difference between recordings of keyed and keyless guitars.

Paul Redmond · Post by **Paul Redmond** » 17 Jun 2015 1:35 am

What b0b said!! A long time ago at Scotty's Convention, Jeff Newman and Hal Rugg and I forget who else now, played a set together using only cheap, low-buck student model guitars. He called the segment "The Cream Of The Crap". Many of you may remember this. It turned out that nobody could tell that these guys were playing 200- and 300-dollar guitars!!! They all sounded great!!! I was convinced that day that I better really start working on picking technique developing a better right-hand technique. Then I saw where the late Billy Bowman picked his strings. I've never played the same since.
PRR

Tom Quinn · Post by **Tom Quinn** » 17 Jun 2015 2:29 am

b0b wrote:I think "tone" is overrated. Chops are more important. You can't buy a good sound. You have to play right to get a good sound.

Just my opinion.

A bad player on an Emmons push-pull still sounds bad. A good player has a good sound on any steel guitar he touches. Keyed vs. keyless doesn't change that.

What Bobby said. But then again, a good player on an Emmons push-pull sounds better than on anything else.

Rich Upright · Post by **Rich Upright** » 17 Jun 2015 2:52 am

While we're at it, can someone explain "hysteresis"?

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