U-12 Copedent Change Maybe?

Ollin Landers · Post by **Ollin Landers** » 12 May 2015 3:04 am

I'm just throwing this out there to get an idea of what some other U-12 players think.

I've been playing this copedent on my U-12's for some time now. I have two guitars. The copedent is basically the same with the minor exception of splits.

Both are Emmons setup on the pedals.

The E lowers on RKR. E raises on RKL.

I'm just thinking about moving the E raises to LKL to facilitate an easier use of the A pedal. I've found that better when I owned 10 string guitars with the E's on the LKL and LKR. If I played an S-10 or D-10 that's where it would be.

But I'm an old dog and getting used to a new copedent would probably take some time for me. If I do decide to do that and I'm not fully convinced I want to.

This would mean I would have to get used to not one knee change but at least two and possibly three.

The question is where to move the other Knees.

LKV lowers 5th string 1/2
LKL lowers 2nd string 1/2 and raises 9th string 1 1\2.
LKR raises 1st string 1/2 and lowers 6th string 1.

I'm mostly convinced to leave LKV as is.

Any suggestions? What would you move where and why.

Mike Perlowin · Post by **Mike Perlowin** » 12 May 2015 3:47 am

My E raises and lowers are LKL and LKR respectively. LKL also lowers string 11 to C#. LKV raises strings 1 and 7 to G natural.

RKL also lowers string 11 to C#, and raises string 2 , which I tune to C#, up to D#. RKR raises string 2 to D natural, and also lowers string 8 to D.

My 5th string lower in on the infamous wrist lever

Bob Simons · Post by **Bob Simons** » 12 May 2015 5:20 am

I think lowering the E's on RKR is crucial. It free's your left leg to wander the right side of the pedalboard without restriction for the 6th style harmonies...and it is easy to flop the weight of your right leg to the right and hold it for a while when necessary.

I raise the E's on the LKL. Easy to work basic E9th changes.I lower 5 on LKV on a long Newman style lever to facilitate 6th style use oft he change.

I started on a U12 so I came with no preconceived notions to accommodate.

Mike Perlowin · Post by **Mike Perlowin** » 12 May 2015 7:08 am

Bob Simons wrote:I think lowering the E's on RKR is crucial.

I disagree. It's a matter of personal preference. You put the change wherever it's the most most comfortable for you.

I had my it on my RKL for a while, and decided I liked them better on the LKR.

Bob Simons · Post by **Bob Simons** » 12 May 2015 7:22 am

I understand "personal preference" but your choice make no ergonomic sense to me. For that reason alone I would encourage anyone who isn't settled in the past on some other E lower position to put it on RKR. THe comfort and convenience replaces the utterly senseless lock device used by some converts to U12 from the double neck past.

Tom Gorr · Post by **Tom Gorr** » 12 May 2015 7:55 am

There are a number of fairly recent threads on this subject dealing generally with the placement of E raises and lowers for E9th players and at least one thread specific to the preferences of U12 players.

I seem to recall from the latter thread that the players that rarely used the B6 changes didn't think having the E Lowers on the left knee to be a problem. ..

I really enjoy the 6th changes and play them at least as much as the 9th changes. ...my E lowers on RKR....E raises on LKL....

The straight E9 arguments pertaining to E lowers and E raises on different knees and the better ergonomics of accessing 6th changes make this a pretty easy decision for me.

Jerry Hayes · Post by **Jerry Hayes** » 12 May 2015 8:04 am

I also lower my E's on my RKR and lower 'em on my RKL and wouldn't change them for anything. Maurice Anderson also recommended them on the right knee as did Jeff Newman when he started playing Universals exclusively... It just makes sense. Why "tie down" your left leg to holding a lever when it should be free to "roam around" and use all the pedals available... Some of the MSA's have a lock that locks the guitar into the 6th tuning but I don't like that idea at all. If you're going to do that you might as well play a doubleneck. The Uni should be looked at as "one big tuning" where you can go into the 6th style back to the 9th style(s) even in the middle of a line if necessary.....JH in Va.

Jamie Howze · Post by **Jamie Howze** » 12 May 2015 8:07 am

I like my E raise on LKL to facilitate E9 A-F combinations. I prefer the E lowers on RKL for a couple of reasons. It leaves my right leg free to do nothing but hold the lever and work the volume pedal and I feel like the muscles that pull inward on my thigh for the RKL fatigue less than those that push outward on the RKR. I too lower string 2 to C# on that change. I use LKR to lower string 5, B->Bb because it is easy when using my left foot for the pedals. My LKV raises string 1 F#->G# and lowers string 6 G#->F# split with the B pedal.

It is a matter of preference, but there is a bit of logic too.

Alan Pagliere · Post by **Alan Pagliere** » 12 May 2015 8:11 am

I agree with RKR for lower and RKL for raise. I have to have the left knee free for my left knee levers which I use in conjunction with the B6-like changes as well as when I think of the entire tuning as both/neither E9/B6.
I have a B->A# on LKR and a G#->A LKV, neither of which would be convenient or even possible if I tied up my left knee.

Ollin Landers · Post by **Ollin Landers** » 12 May 2015 9:49 am

I did not intend this to become a debate on the lowers. I am keeping my E lowers on right knee right because that's the place that's most comfortable for me and that's my preference. my question was what should I do with my other two knees where should I put them after I move my e raises to left knee left.

Alan Pagliere · Post by **Alan Pagliere** » 12 May 2015 11:01 am

You're right. I went afield.... In theory, there is nothing wrong, even for my copedent, with using LKL for the F raise. I happen to have my Universal's 9th string B raise to D and 2nd string D# lower to D and C# on that. But one could imagine that swapping with my current RKL F raise. Why not? No reason....

Then again, I'm not sure that I would ever see an advantage to having the F raise on my LKL. I often use a 9th chord achieved with the F raise and the B pedal, which requires, on the Emmons set up, rocking the foot to the right. I think that would be really awkward if not impossible if the F raise were on LKL. I guess I found my reason.

Mike Perlowin · Post by **Mike Perlowin** » 12 May 2015 12:06 pm

The thing is, one size does not fit all. Knee lever placement is as subjective as color choice. (And we all know all about which color sounds best.

)

Ian Rae · Post by **Ian Rae** » 12 May 2015 12:55 pm

Ollin, here's simple - swap RKL and LKL and leave LKR as it is. That's what I do (although I play Day so the left knees are actually the other way round).

I know that there are many fine players who have "Es on the left" or "Es on the right", but I like them split so that in the A/F positon I can drop the third of the chord to mimic what the A pedal does in the A/B position.

Les Cargill · Post by **Les Cargill** » 12 May 2015 3:16 pm

Ollin Landers wrote:I did not intend this to become a debate on the lowers. I am keeping my E lowers on right knee right because that's the place that's most comfortable for me and that's my preference. my question was what should I do with my other two knees where should I put them after I move my e raises to left knee left.

I have my X lever (5,9)B->A# ( makes a minor when used with the AB pedals ) and a lever to raise (9)B to D and lower (2)D#->D.

Some people move the 8 pedal to a lever.