Seeking expert advice on modifications

Don Chance · Post by **Don Chance** » 4 Mar 2015 10:42 pm

I've always played single-neck 3+4 pedal steels. Their simplicity of operation always worked nicely with the airy guitar-esque early '70s country/rock way I like my steel playing to sound.

Then, I somehow got the idea that I'd like to learn to play the C6 neck, too. This is Texas, after all, and (as has been so eloquently pointed out before) Bob Wills is still the king. That means playing those jazzy western swing licks. So I found my BMI D-10 and began watching YouTube videos, and . . .

And nothing.

Beyond the intro to "All My Exes Live In Texas," I just can't make the C6 neck make sense. Maybe it's from too many years of playing the E9 neck more like like a guitar player than a steel player, but I've come to the conclusion that becoming any kind of competent C6 player is just not in my future.

But I really like my D-10, and don't particularly want to go back to an S-10 model. Those double-neckers, with all those shiny rods catching the stage light, can really make a strong visual impression.

So I want to modify the D-10, but I'm not sure how. One idea I have is to reset the C6 copedant so that I have two E9 necks (and take the two extra pedals off). Going back and forth between the necks would look pretty cool to any in the audience who are paying attention. Sure, real steel players would know right away what I was doing, but I figure most of them would be playing at their own gigs anyway and not at mine. Another idea is to get rid of the two highest and lowest strings and play slide guitar or dobro techniques on the back neck. Or I could completely get rid of the back neck and do the Lloyd Green thing with a pad.

Doing too much would ruin the guitar's value, but I do like the idea of having a custom setup that looks good on bookings. It's show business, after all; and, while the music MUST sound good at all times, it's been my experience that the guy with the more enjoyable show is usually the one who gets the most shows on the calendar.

That being the case, I'd be very interested in how have some of you REAL steel players have modified your guitars to suit your customized tastes.

Thanks!

Richard Sinkler · Post by **Richard Sinkler** » 4 Mar 2015 11:23 pm

I say leave it like it is. Learn what C6 stuff you can. Just because you're in Texas doesn't mean you have to turn into Buddy Emmons. If you change or tear up the back neck, you are no further along than you are right now. I don't know squat on C6, but have always gotten by. It seems you have been getting by without one at all. There are some C6 courses if you really want to persue it. And, being in Texas, I'm sure there are teachers somewhere.

What do you mean " looks good on bookings"? No body really cares what your tunings or setups are. They just care that you can do the job and sound good.

Jim Pitman · Post by **Jim Pitman** » 4 Mar 2015 11:44 pm

I hear where you are coming from. I believe the C6 is less of a "lick" machine than E9....but have you heard guys like Curly Chalker or John Hughey have their way with it?
Chalker could do a scale passage using a three string grip at a rapid pace - 1/16 notes. He mounts his C6 neck in front and the E9 in the rear in fact. A lot of the C6 pizaz though is rapid single note stuff mostly left hand, barely a pedal. The experts tend to be guys who grew up pre-pedal. BTW, both the guys I mentioned are deceased.
Regarding the devaluation issue, anything you do that can't be undone easily will likely reduce your resale market which devalues the guitar. On the other hand it's your guitar and you have the right to express yourself.
My dear friend Chris Templeton has a finger tapped pedal steel. The neck has frets and the strings are very close to the neck. He's a master of it and ain't nobody like him, but....if he sold his guitar his market would be severely limited to perhaps "collectors".
To some degree a pedal steel already is so custom and your market is already limited due to the fact it is not so popular. I guees it depends on the brand. Emmons and some Sho-buds are demanding higher dollars these days.
I play a 12 string universal so I feel I have all the legacy stuff on one neck. I have two 12U guitars and one is a double wide with pad. You mention slide style. dobro etc. I've had a long history of playing slide in a rock context and dobro in a bluegrass context as well, and, have considered removing the rear pad on one U12 and replacing it with a shorter scale, 22.5", 6 string neck with a fat humbucking pickup for overdriven slide stuff ala Duane Allman, David Lindley, etc. Since my rear top only has minor holes for a pad it would be easy to return to original. I have never followed through with this idea though. I wound up making a nice lap steel for this purpose.
If you really want to express yourself, in your case, you could do it up right by removing the laminate, (assuming it's not a naturally finished guitar), plugging key head and changer holes, and re-laminating. You could mount something like a short scale, 6 string neck/key head from George Boards. He used to sell individual items like that. Not sure if he still does. He's on the forum here BTW.
While I was typing I noticed Richard Sinkler (who I surely respect) replied with an opposing opinion. I believe you'll get a lot of responses on both sides.

Ned McIntosh · Post by **Ned McIntosh** » 5 Mar 2015 12:11 am

I'm no C6th guru, but may I offer a few observations which may help you to get some sweet sounds out of the fearsome "bottom-neck"?

This is the approach I adopted to get me started when the band I am in started doing numbers which were mnore western swing than country. Please note:- This asssumes you are tuned from lowest to highest C, F, A, C, E, G, A, C, E, G. I don't have the high D on my 1st string, which makes me a dinosaur.

Okay, let's go:-

Ignore strings 10, 9 and 8. (C, F, A) basically because they're actually an F major triad with the root-note not on the lowest string. For the time being just don't bother with them.

Strings 7, 6 and 5 are a C major triad (C, E and G).

String 4 is the 6th note in the scale of C (the A note).

Strings 3, 2 and 1 are another C major triad (C, E and G again.)

So in the strings from 1 to 7 you have two C major triads with the 6th note in between them.

I visualise it as a Dobro neck with 7 strings, consisting of two C major triads separated by the 6th note, the A-string, right in the middle.

Now, play it non-pedal, using just the major triads, occasionally throwing the A-string in. A lot of old-style C6th sounds are found right here. Playing two strings out of the three can work well, (not necessarily adjacent strings, be it noted) and be prepared to use a lot of bar-slides to make up for not using the pedals. Jeff Newman used to say you could stomp around the C6th neck like a big Dobro...well, this is precisely what you're doing.

Using these strings, and no pedals, you can make a heck of a lot of great C6th sounds, enough to backup anything with a western swing feel to it.

The main thing is to think major triads and big ,fat 6th chords. If you need a minor sound, leave out the 3rd note (i.e. just play the 1 note and the 5 note of the chord). Sure there's a C6th pedal which will get you a minor chord but let another instrument supply the missing flattened 3rd note of the chord.

What this will do is get you comfortable about using the neck, and it will get you out of thinking E9th technique...that isn't how the C6th neck works.

Playing non-pedal at first will really open your ears to some great sounds. As your curiosity gets the better of you, then the 5 pedals will start to make sense.

Here's another hint; when you do start using the C6th pedals, press the pedal(s) for the desired chord before you pick it, don't "pedal the chord into place" like you do on E9th. That is an integral part of the C6th sound. That and plenty of bar-slides.

If you try this I think yu'll find the C6th neck isn't the baffling entity hardened E9th players find, it's actually a fascinating storehouse of unique sounds.

Also, try to think of your D10 as two separate steel-guitars that somehow collided and got fused together in an oversize cabinet. They are entirely separate entitites. They play different and they sound different.

Vive la difference!

Tom Gorr · Post by **Tom Gorr** » 5 Mar 2015 1:41 am

Find a I IV V chord progression backing track and just start improvising using just the bar...then push and hold any one pedal and find where it fits.

You'll be having so much fun after a few hours that you will totally change your mind.

John Billings · Post by **John Billings** » 5 Mar 2015 3:36 am

Depending on the music you want to play, a different tuning might suit you. Perhaps a tuning based on bottleneck low bass G. That's what I'm experimenting with. Having retired from gigging, my friends that I jam with play a lot of Blues, and the Low Bass G tuning gives me the sound I like. Delta, and Rock.

Scott Duckworth · Post by **Scott Duckworth** » 5 Mar 2015 3:58 am

Using these strings, and no pedals, you can make a heck of a lot of great C6th sounds, enough to backup anything with a western swing feel to it.

Playing non-pedal at first will really open your ears to some great sounds. As your curiosity gets the better of you, then the 5 pedals will start to make sense.

I agree. I played C6 6 string lap steel first. Then I got a D-10 pedal steel. I never used the pedals on the C6.

I'm back to a S-10 E9 now, but sometime in the future, I hope to go back to a lighter weight D-10 with E9 & C6.

Dick Sexton · Post by **Dick Sexton** » 5 Mar 2015 5:27 am

I don't play it, but some do pretty well. I've turned my back on Rusty Rhoads and couldn't tell what neck he was on. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OMZ1ZYLPOtE Not so with most players...

Alan Berdoulay · Post by **Alan Berdoulay** » 5 Mar 2015 5:41 am

To expand on Neds wise approach to the back neck.........learn some common bar slants in the C6th tuning.......then see how some pedals give you those notes without slanting. For example.....at root position, if you foward slant to lower string 6 while playing 4 and 3 at the original fret.......you have a IV7 triad consisting of b7,3 and 5.......pedal 6 in standard C6 tuning gives you that on those strings. Another example would be something like......using RKR that raises string 4 a half tone to Bb......could take the place of a half tone string pull behind the bar on your A string.....a C6 non pedal technique to achieve a dominant 7.
"Playing non-pedal at first will really open your ears to some great sounds. As your curiosity gets the better of you, then the 5 pedals will start to make sense."
..........some pedals and knees take the place of some non pedal moves.

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 5 Mar 2015 6:10 am

I'm with Richard, here...don't go "customizing". LEARN the C6th tuning, because if you don't, you;ll be lost on anyone else's steel (and they'll be equally as lost on yours). There are tons of learning materials and many teachers out there who will help you on your way. But if you decide to do your own thing, realize you'll be on your own most of the time.

While it's true that a few who vere from the much-travled road learn new ways and make new discoveries, the vast majority of "wanderers" just wind up getting lost.

Tom Campbell · Post by **Tom Campbell** » 5 Mar 2015 6:41 am

If modifying is no more than moving/removing pedals and changing copedents...go for it. You can learn a lot about your guitar and widen your horizons. You can always re-set it back to a standard copedent.

If, modifying means physically drilling...cutting...etc. into the guitars physical body, you definitely can ruin the value of your instrument.

Jack Stoner · Post by **Jack Stoner** » 5 Mar 2015 8:46 am

I'm with Donny on using what you have and learning with that. Or to put it another way "play the guitar don't let the guitar play you". I play a lot of C6th but its the standard 6 pedals and a knee lever to lower the 3rd string (and a knee lever that lowers the 2nd string).

I also have the "old style" G string as the 1st string.

chris ivey · Post by **chris ivey** » 5 Mar 2015 9:59 am

either start learnng some c6 or stick with your s10 and don't worry so much about appearances.

Howard Steinberg · Post by **Howard Steinberg** » 5 Mar 2015 1:53 pm

Rick Kornacker has 2 C6 courses that are sold on ebay. Very user friendly stuff that kinda' looks at C6 as we look at E9. Well worth the few bucks that they cost.

Billy Carr · Post by **Billy Carr** » 5 Mar 2015 2:19 pm

Lower your 4th & 8th strings to Eb with KL and you'll have plenty of C6th sounds right there. It'll be a B6th tuning and the open C chord on the rear of a D-10 which is open will be at the 1st fret on the E9th neck. There's other ways to play C6th on the E9th also.

Jim Pitman · Post by **Jim Pitman** » 5 Mar 2015 2:22 pm

The last line of the original post:
"That being the case, I'd be very interested in how have some of you REAL steel players have modified your guitars to suit your customized tastes."
Anybody?
I guess the majority here has made the assumption one should conform. Perhaps this is why the popularity of pedal steel guitar is in decline.
Let me name a few non-conformists:
Buddy Emmons - added the two chromatic strings to E9.
Maurice Anderson - came up with combining two necks into one.
Robert Randolph - Had his way with the tuning to suit the music style appreciated by his generation.

Tom Gorr · Post by **Tom Gorr** » 5 Mar 2015 2:46 pm

I was reading about a real steel player that reversed his string order...

There... a second E9 on the back neck suddenly became interesting to me.... that might meet the threshold of show business.

Willie Sims · Post by **Willie Sims** » 5 Mar 2015 3:24 pm

Don don't miss your guitar up, the C6 tuning is not that complicated. If you are using the regular C6 tuning pick out a song that you really know, for instance an old Western swing song like San Antonio Rose. Play it in G on the seventh FRET, you can get the whole first-line ON the seventh fret, go to the 12th fret which is C now go back to the NINETH. FRET , that is A, go to the 14th fret which is D, back to the seventh fret that is G, if you want to play CHORDS,, play G, on the seventh fret push six pedal that lowers the six string and raises the second string, go to fret 14 YOU will get a G-7 backup two frets, LET the six pedal up slide back to the NINETH fret, push the six pedal down you make your D seventh back to G on the seventh fret. Willie SIMS. If you figure this out let me know

Lane Gray · Post by **Lane Gray** » 5 Mar 2015 3:30 pm

Or you could stay on the 7th fret.
G-no pedals
C- P6
A- P5 (or 5&7)
D- P6&7

Or at fret 12
G- P6&7
C- no pedals
A- P8
D- P5 (or sometimes 5&7)

Willie Sims · Post by **Willie Sims** » 6 Mar 2015 8:02 am

LANE, your post was really good for using the pedals, I was under the impression that Don was not familiar with the C6 tuning. My suggestion was more to the melody of the song, only using the six pedal. There are many ways to play the same song, using different pedal combinations.

we should have advised him if he didn't already know that the C6 six pedal works exactly like the A /b pedal on the e 9th neck, for chord changes. I am not a expert own anything, especially steel guitar. But I have played C6 for many years even before steel guitars had pedals . But that doesn't qualify me as a expert. Willie SIMS.

Lane Gray · Post by **Lane Gray** » 6 Mar 2015 8:53 am

The C6th pedal steel requires a different train of thought.
The E9th neck, with its standard changes, is very diatonic, and standard western music (even classical) just sits right under the bar.
The C6th neck has its changes much more built around creating extended harmony jazz chords.
An agile brain can make each neck sing like the other (Gary Lee Gimble and Wally Murphy both drop my jaw in that regard), but they each hit the brain differently than the other.
They're both fun. To me, the E9th is EXTREMELY intuitive, and the C6th makes me think.

steve takacs · Post by **steve takacs** » 7 Mar 2015 5:03 pm

To help, as Donny said, to learn the C6 neck, Buddy Emmons' BASIC C6 and Herby Wallace's HWP-200 could be quite helpful. They were for me and I still refer back to them.

Both come with either cassette or CD. Perhaps Jim Palenscar has Emmons course in stock at his California shop. Mrs. Wallace should have the C6 course on Herby's site.

Then there are tons of Mickey Adams Youtube videos and the Greg Cutshaw's website to put what you learn into action.

What Ned and Lane posted here, are excellent ways to look at the C6 when getting started. stevet

John Scanlon · Post by **John Scanlon** » 7 Mar 2015 6:04 pm

What about an E7 tuning like the sacred steel guys use, or maybe a G7 cajun tuning that's been discussed a lot here lately?

Steve Spitz · Post by **Steve Spitz** » 7 Mar 2015 7:34 pm

I think Ned and Donny offer some excellent advice.

I wouldn't modify the back neck. It's your guitar, and it's for you to decide, but I wouldnt make any changes based on the appearance of a double neck as a deciding factor.
It may help to consider the back neck as an 8 string non-pedal steel, using only the the first eight strings, ACEGACEG, and try to cop some Western swing or Hank Williams . Don't think you have to be Curly Chalker, just try to create simple sounds you recognize as a start.if you change the tuning, all instructional material is of no value. You may find C6 difficult, but set some reasonable goals , you'll be glad you didn't abandon the tuning.

I started on non-pedal, a 6th tuning. I was a working steel player, and didn't know E9. It just takes patience, and a bit of work. Enjoy the journey, you'll get there.

Don Chance · Post by **Don Chance** » 8 Mar 2015 5:18 pm

Sorry to be so long in getting back to this thread. I was playing some bookings out of town and I don't like trying to type with that irritating "touch keyboard" on my tablet.

Anyway, thanks for all the responses! With the information and insights you guys provided, I'll give trying to pick up the C6 neck another few weeks before deciding on any changes I might make.

As much as I like it, I might just end up selling my D-10 and going back to an S-10 or S-12.

Thanks again, guys!

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Seeking expert advice on modifications

Seeking expert advice on modifications

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