G# lowered to G, fairly uncommon?

Chris Lasher · Post by **Chris Lasher** » 28 Feb 2004 6:36 am

I was sitting down to my pedal steel today trying to work on finding chord voicings when I noticed how absolutely convenient a G# to G pedal or knee lever would be to allow rapid access to minor chords. I then went to b0b's tunings webpage to look through various artists' E9th tunings and found that change only Earnest Bovine's, John McClung's and Mike Jones' guitars. I was genuinely surprised to not see it on Lloyd Green's, Tommy White's, and particularly Paul Franklin's setups.

Is this change fairly uncommon? It seems like it would be standard issue. Guessing in my head, it seems to offer great possiblities for passing from a major to a minor or vice versa, not to mention ease of access, as well as complementing all the other pedal/lever combinations that give minor voicings.

autry andress · Post by **autry andress** » 28 Feb 2004 6:52 am

The Moon has it. Check out Ralph Mooney's
tunning. Of course he's different & he's the man or the moon. Looking forward to hearing him again @ TSGC. I'm amazed at what he gets out of his tunning.[This message was edited by autry andress on 28 February 2004 at 08:23 AM.]

Erv Niehaus · Post by **Erv Niehaus** » 28 Feb 2004 7:08 am

I think it's more common to raise the F# to G than dropping the G# to G. That's the way I have it set up. I also have the full tone drop to F# on a lever. That change can also be split tuned with the B pedal to give you a G# to G drop.(this change is on the 6th string)
Erv [This message was edited by Erv Niehaus on 28 February 2004 at 07:09 AM.]

Jeff Hogsten · Post by **Jeff Hogsten** » 28 Feb 2004 7:39 am

Jimmie Crawford has had that change for years and there is a lot more you can do with it than just get a minor chord Im surprised more people dont have it

C Dixon · Post by **C Dixon** » 28 Feb 2004 7:58 am

It is not a standard or common change. But I predict it WILL be in the future. I have it on my U-12 where I lower all three G#'s to G. This minor inversion is just tooooooo musically necessary not to have had it from the beginning, IMO.

carl

Michael Johnstone · Post by **Michael Johnstone** » 28 Feb 2004 9:30 am

I've had it for 25 years on D-10s and on my U-12s - I gotta have it. -MJ-

Pete Burak · Post by **Pete Burak** » 28 Feb 2004 9:34 am

It was pointed out to me recently (by Forumite Scott Swartz) that adding a D# to D lower to the G# to G pedal/lever further enhances the coolness of this change.

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 28 Feb 2004 10:05 am

I lower my G#'s to G on a pedal.

With the high G# to G, you will often want to be able to lower your second string to D at the same time. If you lean towards JI tuning, your D lever might sound a bit flat because the G is tuned so sharp. (In JI the G should be tuned about 314 cents sharp of the E.)

I have a compensator that raises the 2nd string a few cents when I lower the 3rd string. The tri-tone interval (D#-G) doesn't suffer because it's closer to ET, and the fourth interval (D-G) is more in tune.

I wouldn't put both changes on the same pedal or knee because then I'd lose that tri-tone. Better to have them separate.

Since I play extended E9th, I sometimes use the low G as the root and think of my tuning as a G major on the low strings. It's a handy position.

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<img align=right src="http://b0b.com/Hotb0b.gif" width="96 height="96">Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs, Open Hearts
Sierra Session 12 (E9), Williams 400X (Emaj9, D6), Sierra Olympic 12 (C6add9),
Sierra Laptop 8 (E6add9), Fender Stringmaster (E13, A6),
Roland Handsonic, Line 6 Variax

Chris Lasher · Post by **Chris Lasher** » 28 Feb 2004 10:14 am

adding a D# to D lower to the G# to G pedal/lever

Thus giving you access to an Emin9 sound (E-G-B-D-F#).

With a separate D# to D lever or pedal, you could easily transition from a major 9 to a dominant 9 to a minor 9 smoothly.

I currently have my F# going up two full steps to be in unison with the G#. I think it would be far more useful to lower the G#s to Gs than to raise the F#s to Gs, because you can keep the same strings ringing as you transition from major to minor, or from minor to major. If you have to access that G by raising the F#s a half step, you will have to block your G# strings and pick your raised F# strings. The beauty of pedal steel, to me, at least, has always been in the continuity and legato flow from chord voicing to chord voicing; I think the G# to G would really take advantage of this wonderful instrument.

I think I'm really going to have to get that change added.

Eric West · Post by **Eric West** » 28 Feb 2004 10:43 am

If you lean towards JI tuning, your D lever might sound a bit flat because the G is tuned so sharp. (In JI the G should be tuned about 3.14 cents sharp of the E.)

Things get pretty complicated when you get off the zero...

The G# Eb lower might be a good 4th pedal combo or "possibly a VKL". Possibly too, (Pete) a GREAT "Travis" position.

Hmm.. Haven't thought of changing copedants for decades.... There's a LOT of stuff out there..

EJL[This message was edited by Eric West on 28 February 2004 at 12:20 PM.]

Travis Bernhardt · Post by **Travis Bernhardt** » 28 Feb 2004 11:44 am

I like it. I think it's especially good on the Extended E9--that low eleventh string G gives a few more chords down there. That's where I use it, anyways.

-Travis

Olivier Dufays · Post by **Olivier Dufays** » 28 Feb 2004 12:15 pm

Hello,

I'm not a reference (and far from being), but I have it on the Zum I've just bought.
I only have it on the 6th string, it's on RKL.

Best regards,
Olivier

Fred Shannon · Post by **Fred Shannon** » 28 Feb 2004 2:02 pm

There are several of us dinosaurs that never 'migrated' to the E9 tuning and stayed with EMaj and/or E6. This pull has been a mainstay with my tuning since the late 50's or early 60's. Could or would not be without it. On one of my axes it is in the #1 pedal position next to the B to C# pull, however on most I have it on a LKL lever.

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The spirit be with you!
If it aint got a steel, it aint real

Dave Van Allen · Post by **Dave Van Allen** » 28 Feb 2004 2:55 pm

I had it on a knee for 20 years on my MSA, and like Carl I have the change on my U12, but it's on a pedal.
On my ZB I have it on a KL. I like it on the lever best (i use the change more often in a night than on the U12) but it is indespensable IMO

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 28 Feb 2004 3:24 pm

Fred Shannon wrote:

There are several of us dinosaurs that never 'migrated' to the E9 tuning and stayed with EMaj and/or E6. This pull has been a mainstay with my tuning since the late 50's or early 60's.

Alvino Rey had it on his E6th. Click here.

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<img align=right src="http://b0b.com/Hotb0b.gif" width="96 height="96">Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs, Open Hearts
Sierra Session 12 (E9), Williams 400X (Emaj9, D6), Sierra Olympic 12 (C6add9),
Sierra Laptop 8 (E6add9), Fender Stringmaster (E13, A6),
Roland Handsonic, Line 6 Variax

Gene Jones · Post by **Gene Jones** » 28 Feb 2004 3:36 pm

*[This message was edited by Gene Jones on 06 April 2006 at 02:08 PM.]

Chris Lasher · Post by **Chris Lasher** » 28 Feb 2004 4:13 pm

Bobby, I completely forgot to include you as being one of the people in that list who had the change. My apologies.

Eric: Aren't you having one of your Sho-Buds refurbished by the Marrs crew? What about having them put it on that while they're at it?[This message was edited by Chris Lasher on 28 February 2004 at 04:16 PM.]

Charles Tilley · Post by **Charles Tilley** » 28 Feb 2004 7:02 pm

I would hate to face tomorrow without that change on my guitar. Pickin' 5,6 and 8 with A&B pedals then getting off B and lowering the G#to a G makes a great passing chord to a 4 chord.

I introduced that change to Bob McCormick in Nashville----- he tried it and now uses it constantly.

Of course, everyone has their special needs and this might not fit everyone.

John Macy · Post by **John Macy** » 28 Feb 2004 8:23 pm

I have had the G#'s to G on an inside LKL since '79. Sonny Garrish has it in the same place. Jimmie Crawford was the one that got me on it...

Al Udeen · Post by **Al Udeen** » 28 Feb 2004 9:34 pm

I've had that on my LKV since Tom Brumley Showed me how he played the ride on Dwight Yokums "I Sang Dixie" Tom uses it Profusely! au

Winnie Winston · Post by **Winnie Winston** » 29 Feb 2004 2:02 am

Can't live without it.
I've had it on my steel since 1974. It was first on a pedal to the left of the C# first pedal. In 1976 when I rebuit my first steel it went on an inside LKL. I still have it there on the Kline.
It is a very useful change.

JW

Danny Kuykendall · Post by **Danny Kuykendall** » 29 Feb 2004 5:52 am

I found that by raising the "A" pedal to a c# at the same time of lowering the g# to a g makes for an interesting chord (a minor 6th?).

Danny K[This message was edited by Danny Kuykendall on 20 March 2004 at 09:56 AM.]

David L. Donald · Post by **David L. Donald** » 29 Feb 2004 5:57 am

I was wanting it desperastely on a pure logic basis, but hadn't added it.
About the same time I got Winnie's Manual Of Style book and noted J. Crawford had it on his last listed copedent,
and I also did a of nights of jazz manouche swing with my band on steel instead of bass...

Next day I put 2 G#'s to G on RKL and do not regret it a bit.
Somethings I JUST CAN"T Do with out it.

It made the E9 quite logical to use on certain russian/ balkan flavord songs.
Am to Dm back and forth FAST and with specific voicings I needed. AB w/LKV or LKR, alternating RKL.

It also for me makes it much more like the changes I can get on C6. I have been gradually getting the same harmonic functionality on both necks, yet keeping their unique advantages.

A cool bluesy change with it is
E lower w/pB, then G lower with pA, then no pedals.
All the same fret.
Then you can add Bs to Bb LKV and G# lower and back to no pedals.[This message was edited by David L. Donald on 29 February 2004 at 06:08 AM.]

Dan Farrell · Post by **Dan Farrell** » 29 Feb 2004 10:17 am

I've always had G#-G on LKV. Couldn't live without it. Nice to see that one of my heros, Tom Brumley, uses it too.

Jeff Hogsten · Post by **Jeff Hogsten** » 29 Feb 2004 7:25 pm

Ok here is a Crawford lick using that change
if you tune your second string to e flat lower it to D now at the tenth fret place the bar on your fifth string and play 5, 3 open with it lowered, and 1 open then 3agin. then put your bar on the sixth string 10th fret and play 6, 4open, 2(D)open and 4again, this is like a roll this opens up a lot of possabilites all over the neck Jeff