D10 before U12? still undecided.(NOT U12 vs D10)

Kiyoshi Osawa · Post by **Kiyoshi Osawa** » 28 Mar 2004 5:22 pm

Hello,

I'm kind of scared of asking this question after reading some of the earlier post about u12 vs d10. But just to clarify. My question is NOT wether one is better than the other.

Im pretty much set and decided on eventually playing U12. Ive been playing a carter starter for a little over a year now. Im at a point where its all just about to come together for me. I can feel it, its just around the corner. And Im sold on the idea of a universal tuning, So i know i will want to migrate to a U12 eventually. Heres my question, for all you U12 players:

Would you recommend I START with a D10 and Then move to U12? I know this would not help with the whole "its one big tuning, not 2 separate ones", but i still think from a Didactical stand point, it would be simpler to get a D10 to learn the new neck, while still being able to play regular E9. From what I gather, it would still be entirely possible for me to play regular E9 on the universal, specially since im not far enough into it that i would miss this or that pedal, lever or string. But still, This idea kind of makes logical sense to me. Am I nuts?

Again, Im not asking wether a U12 is better or not, just if its more... expedient... to learn pure c6, THEN join the 2 together.

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Kiyoshi
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Steven Black · Post by **Steven Black** » 28 Mar 2004 5:34 pm

Hello Kyiosha, are you originally from Japan?
and if so you should contact the Excel guitar
company, they make U12s excellent guitar, they are located in Japan, or Scotty's music sells them. I prefer the double 10, cause you get a full c6th and keep your full e9th,
but the twelve gives you some neat changes, but won't have a full c6th capability, I have a U12 here now, and miss the 9th string, which a double 10 has for e9th, I have to lower my RKR to get it. steveb.

Kiyoshi Osawa · Post by **Kiyoshi Osawa** » 28 Mar 2004 5:41 pm

hi there,

I realize it must be confusing to see a japanese name registered to Mexico City. You should see the looks I get around HERE!!!

To answer your question... No, I was born here in Mexico, but my father is from Japan, he moved here after WWII. Ive read about those Excel guitars. But I havent been to Japan since I started playing, so I havent seen or heard them in person or anything.

anyway... uh... im still undecided.

Chris Bauer · Post by **Chris Bauer** » 28 Mar 2004 5:55 pm

I'm not a 12 stringer but, if that's where you think you'd like to end up, I'd say you have everything to gain and nothing to lose by starting out with the kind of set-up in which you're interested. I'd go straight for the U12.

Nicholas Dedring · Post by **Nicholas Dedring** » 28 Mar 2004 6:01 pm

Since you want to play Universal... I'll definitely echo Chris here.

I don't play a U12. It just isn't something that my mind can wrap itself around... I wouldn't know what I would want on the guitar... if you want to play a universal, might as well just start with that. You might have a steeper learning curve, but you won't have to relearn/unlearn anything.

bob drawbaugh · Post by **bob drawbaugh** » 28 Mar 2004 6:05 pm

If the U12 is were you want to end up go for it . You can still play all the E9th thing while you learn the 6th side. I also think you will end up with a better E9th, just my opion. There is no need to go to D10 first. Why do it with 10 when you can do it with 12.

Kiyoshi Osawa · Post by **Kiyoshi Osawa** » 28 Mar 2004 6:13 pm

I guess i could elaborate a little bit... I live in Mexico City. there is ABSOLUTELY no country music here. Not even Dixie Chicks, Faith Hill, or any of the "Cross over" singers gat any airplay on the radio. I Love country music, But realistically, I'm not gonna be playing that much of it. So I know the C6 tuning will be my option for Jazz and such (its why I want to play anyway).

So, I kind of have this idea of learning straght C6 to see what it can do... Then switch to Univesal so I can decide if I prefere E9/B6 or Bb6... you know.

I know it would be more logical to just up and get a universal now, and just learn as much as possible as soon as possible. But learning just E9 has proved such a challenge that Im scared of universal, in that it would present such a BIG effort in my part, it might prove too much to swallow at once. This is why I think it might prove more useful to learn one thing at a time.

anyway, thanks

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Kiyoshi
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Dennis Detweiler · Post by **Dennis Detweiler** » 28 Mar 2004 7:40 pm

I played D-10 for 8yrs. Then went to a U-12. I've been playing U-12 for 27yrs. I recommend going to a U-12 now. There is no advantage for you to play a D-10 before going to a U-12. There will be less confusion in the long run by making the transition now. Purchase Jeff Newman's U-12 courses.
Dennis

Sidney Malone · Post by **Sidney Malone** » 28 Mar 2004 7:49 pm

I'm with everyone else here, if U-12 is where your headed then I believe that the sooner you start playing a U-12 the faster you will reach your goal. I can't see learning 2 tunings when the E9/B6 work hand in hand.

I would also like to make another suggestion. If there's any way possible, you should spend a couple of days with Reece Anderson when you get your U-12 and he will put you years ahead of the game and remove all the fears of going to a 12 string.

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Fessy S-12U, Future MSA Millennium S-12U, Stereo Steel

Al Marcus · Post by **Al Marcus** » 28 Mar 2004 8:44 pm

Kiyoshi-I too would recommend going right to the U12.

But if you are going to do a lot of C6th stuff, get the builder to put a lock on the B6 side.
A lot of them don't do unless special ordered. It is there if you need it and you can always turn it off, if you so desire.

Now then play the first 3 pedals just like E9 and the other 4 pedals just like C6 only it will be in B6 wtih the lock on so you can play a lot of C6 stuff without holding that knee lever in.

Later as you get more proficient with the 12 string you can play the whole tuning without the lock.

As you want to learn E9 and C6 separately, and still have the U12, that would be one way to go. Good luck...al

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My Website..... www.cmedic.net/~almarcus/

Rick Schmidt · Post by **Rick Schmidt** » 28 Mar 2004 11:37 pm

Since I don't really have any inclination to switch from a double neck to a uni, I guess I'm just lurking here...but I definitely agree that Kiyoshi should just go ahead and go right to the universal. I'm sure there's a lifetime of learning to be done there.

I was just curious about Al's post regarding the lock. What's the main differences between the B6 WITH the lock and the typical C6 set up without it?

I LOVE the idea of incorporating the jazzier ideas that are on the E9 (although in my experience that is all about having the 9th "D" string on there

) with the usual C6(B6) changes! But I HATE the idea of having to hold that E lower Knee lever to play in the "back neck" mode. I'm just too in love with the C6 open tuning as a starting point to ever want to give that up.

Does the lock create a true "back neck"? What's missing? What's added?

David L. Donald · Post by **David L. Donald** » 29 Mar 2004 12:51 am

If you plan on playing a U-12 go right to it.
You may later decide you also want a D-10.
But your time spent working on the tuning you expect to play on most is the way to go.
The knee lever lock is also a good idea.

A nice few days with Reece would get you totally in gear. I am looking hard at his Bb6 set up also.

I got a D-10 because I wanted C6 and the E9 neck came with it.
Since then I have found enough reasons for playing jazz/blues as well as country that I now want both necks integrated together.

I don't regret getting the D-10, but see the need for a S-12 that will undoubtedly not remain stock.
Neither my E9 or C6 stayed stock long.

Steven Black · Post by **Steven Black** » 29 Mar 2004 3:52 am

Kiyoshi, go ahead and get a U12, after playing mine here for a bit I am finding more on it than I did with the double 10's.
Also check out Carter's U12 and GFI's U12, but I do like the Excel with a change lock on it better, I think Kobiyoshi is the only one building these with change lock.steveb.

C Dixon · Post by **C Dixon** » 29 Mar 2004 7:30 am

For a slightly unusual twist on the "LOK" feature, I use it mostly for a different reasons. With one of those reasons being quite unusual.

My LKR lowers the E's. But my LOK lever lowers the E's PLUS, lowers the 2nd string a whole tone.

I would love to lower the 2nd string with LKR. But it makes it toooo stiff for me. So since I am switching from an E9th mode to B6th (and back) mode most of the time automatically (and without thinking about it), it makes it better to just lower the E's, and not fight that stiffness.

BUT, if I want a straight "C6" type tuning with "the D on top", then I simply throw the lever and I have it (C# in the case of B6). Incidently, on a Universal you don't have to sacrifice the high G (F#) when you want that "D on top", as you do on D-10's. ANOTHER advantage for the U-12r's

Also, there is a 2nd advantage of doing it this way. Because of additional stresses when the 2nd string is lowered (along with the E's to Eb), it causes the "lok'd" Eb's to be slightly out of tune. So after thinking about it, I changed how the LOK lever works.

IE, instead of locking LKR engaged as all "LOK" systems do, I simply added another crossrod with 3 bell cranks. 2 for the E's to Eb and 1 for the D# to C#. The LOK lever pulls THIS crossrod instead of locking LKR. Now I can fine tune the Eb's as I wish. This worked out quite well.

Another great thing about the Excel having a 6 raise 5 lower changer. There is always plenty of holes to do these little "extra" things.

Carrying this a step further; by adding a mechanical "switchover" to the LOK lever, it allowed LKR to be usable in the "locked" mode. So I raise the E's back up to E with LKR when in the locked mode. It will warp your mind for a bit but like anything else ya git used to it

By doing this, I can go back to a straight E9th mode while in the LOK mode. This is impossible with the standard U-12 tuning using a LOK lever.

carl[This message was edited by C Dixon on 29 March 2004 at 07:37 AM.][This message was edited by C Dixon on 29 March 2004 at 07:45 AM.]

Jeff Lampert · Post by **Jeff Lampert** » 29 Mar 2004 7:39 am

Kiyoshi, non one has mentioned this, but since you apparently want jazz to be the basis of your playing (which puts you in a very small minority of players), you might consider that you should get a Bb6 Universal tuning, which is what Reece (Maurice) Anderson uses. In this tuning, you are automatically in the "6th" mode for jazz, and you would get the country E9 side by pressing or locking a knee lever.

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Jeff's Jazz

Kiyoshi Osawa · Post by **Kiyoshi Osawa** » 29 Mar 2004 8:43 am

everyone,

Thanks for your answers. The unanimous majority suggests going directly to U12. So, i guess I'll wiegh in all your advice and see how it fits in with my ideas. ( I can't very well just go direct to U12 just cuz you people told me to!)

Jeff,

As i mentioned earlier, I kind of think thats where I'll be eventually headed (Bb6). But see thats the point. To get to be sort of acceptable doing any type of 6th tuning, I should concentrate most on JUST THAT, the same ive been doing with JUST E9 to get started. Or am i missing the point?

It's just that I really cant afford to make a wrong decision at this point. Buying a new guitar will set me back quite a few $$$, so i'll be pretty much stuck with what I have for a while, and if it turns out to be the wrong choice for me... I don't know.

I guess I should just shut up and practice, right? thanks again for all your answers.

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Kiyoshi
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Roy Ayres · Post by **Roy Ayres** » 29 Mar 2004 9:20 am

Kayoshi:
Buy a used guitar of whichever type you decide to go with. Used guitars in good contition can be bought for about half the cost of a new one -- and if you take good care of it, you can usually sell it a few years later for close to the amount you paid for it. [This message was edited by Roy Ayres on 29 March 2004 at 09:21 AM.]

Sidney Malone · Post by **Sidney Malone** » 29 Mar 2004 10:08 am

My opinion on just concentrating on the 6th tuning is this. If you are going to end up on a 12 string whether it be Bb6 or E9/B6, then I would suggest focusing on the one tuning you want to end up playing.

Learning C6 seperate from E9 I believe has been a major stumbling block for a lot of the D-10 players who switched to S-12. For years they thought of the two seperate tunings and have a really hard time combining them when going to an S-12. I'm sure I would have been the same way.

I started on a S-10 very much like you and went to an S-12 when I wanted to add the 6th sound. Doing it this way just adds to what you know now instead of learning a different tuning then trying to combine it later. I'm not sure how much of the C6 is transferable to the S-12. I do know the fret positions are not the same. For me it would be a mental trainwreck to try and do that.

Which ever way you decide to go, you'll get plenty of help here on the forum. Before you make your final decision I would suggest just calling Reece Anderson and telling him what you are thinking and he can explain in very easy to understand terms of what you'll be getting into.

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Fessy S-12U, Future MSA Millennium S-12U, Stereo Steel

Dennis Detweiler · Post by **Dennis Detweiler** » 29 Mar 2004 11:39 am

Advantage of lever lock would be to free that knee for using additional knee levers. Disadvantage would be the creativity of instantly switching and grabbing some E9th combinations or licks. Overall, it's probably an advantage to have the lock.
I would recommend tuning the 2nd string to C# and then raising it with a double stop D/D# with the same lever that raises your 9th string B to D.
Dennis

J D Sauser · Post by **J D Sauser** » 29 Mar 2004 1:15 pm

First, I'd go with all the OK's, if that's what you are looking at already, it would make no sense to go with a D-10 first, much to the contrary, except that it may convince you to stick to the D-10, which isn't bad either.
Now, some have come up discussing which side of the U-12 you should base your tuning-setup on. I would like to suspect that since you have already decided the universal is for you that you may have realized something... it's ONE tuning which ever way you turn it, especially to you who has not used a two tuning guitar (D-10) before. There is no difference in my opinion which base you use open, E9th or B6th... that guitar is going to play in E9th, B6th, A6th, C# and so forth, and so forth anyway. If you base it on E9th, you won't be playing Jazz with that E-to-Eb lever engaged all the time... most times indeed, it won't be engaged, if what you are after, is to use the guitars (not just a particular tuning's) full potential.
Proves:
Just one (but a big one): Maurice Anderson. I've seen him a couple of years back at the Dallas show. This was shortly before the new MSA days. Maurice is not just know for the "Universal" but also for being a great Bb6th (Jazz-) player. Well, he brought his own ensemble and he played all Jazz. Real Jazz... not just Swing or Steel Guitar Jazz. I've seen some HOF'ers shut up and look at him play a storm of complex chord and lines, with their mouth wide open... When he came out I said "... so, some great Bb6th you did...". He smiled telling me, that no, it was his E9th-U. I trust Maurice because I consider him a Friend... but I must admit that I went back to strum across his guitar's strings... it was E9th-U.

Mexico and most of Latin America has some great music and there is much where the steel would fit in just beautifully. I hear a lot of steel in new Brazilian music (imagine playing steel behind some curvy mulatas dancing... ONE beats all line dancer of the world!).
I'd love to hear some steel behind Luis Miguel... maybe it will be you.

... J-D.

Kiyoshi Osawa · Post by **Kiyoshi Osawa** » 29 Mar 2004 1:26 pm

JD:

Luis Miguel... I Wish!!! that's pretty much as big as it gets here. and ever since he broke up with Maria Carey, he hasn't been as popular

. The other good oportunity I see, for straight E9 at least, is norteno music. The texas Tornados had a couple of norteno style cuts with PSG in them and it just fit in perfectly. But the Norteno scene is just that... up North, far from mexico city. (I guess it's all south to you, right!?)

Anyway, I understand your point. I'm basing my idea of Universal from joining what ive heard of E9 and what ive heard of C6, so it is distinctly different in each instance. I guess I should save up to spend some time with Mr. Anderson, to have the opportunity to hear the "concept" or one big tuning. Darn! thats one more thing I got to spend on!

Anyway, thanks again for all your replies.

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Kiyoshi
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James Quackenbush · Post by **James Quackenbush** » 29 Mar 2004 3:41 pm

Kiyoshi,
I was in very much the same situation that you are in....I bought an older D-10 for my first instrument, and never touched the C6 neck..Then I sold it and bought an E9...Now I was doing OK as the E9 neck was all I was playing anyway....I loved to listen to Jazz, and Swing, but didn't have a clue how to play it ...The E9 was great for country playing, and with a little work can also work for Jazz or Swing ...The U-12 affords a great way to go since you can really play Country and Swing, and Jazz ...It was not hard to go to after playing E9 for me ... It was more of an extention of what I was doing on E9 , plus a lot more when dropping the E's for the B6 tuning ... I bought a video by Jeff Newman that REALLY openned my eyes to the 6th tuning and playing ...If you think that you will be playing more Jazz and Swing , and less Country, the U-12 would be a great place to move on to ... To me it was a lot easier to see the relavance and the positioning of the E9 chords working TOGETHER with the B6 tuning and chords for seemless integration ... It's really quite hard to explain....Perhaps some more seasoned U-12 player's can elaborate ...
I'm really glad I went to U-12...I hope I haven't confused you ....Sincerely, Jim

Paul Brainard · Post by **Paul Brainard** » 29 Mar 2004 8:15 pm

The best thing I ever did for learning C6 was to get an 8-string lap steel. You might try that (or even a 6-er) as an interim step.

Wes Bakken · Post by **Wes Bakken** » 30 Mar 2004 6:12 pm

Kiyoshi
I have been playing U12 for 25 years and Played a single E9 for the first 25. I love the E9/B6. I think of my guitar as one tuning, that is, it is capable of E9 sounds and C6 sounds. try not to think of it as two different tunings. Most of the time I start out playing E9 stuff and there will be a big fat chord that I know will be great with the sound of C6, just kick in the knee lever and play that chord and then slip back to the sound of the E9th if the song calls for it. I don't lock the knee lever, as I play both sounds in the same song. With the knee lever unlocked you can use it as you would any other pedal in your fleet. Normaly you wouldn't think or your guitar as having 10 tunings, just because you have 10 pedals. You have a guitar that can simulate the E9 and the C6. You can't get it exactly, but you can come close. melding the two tunings together in the same song is really fun and also challenging. You really have to pay attention to where you are, but it will come as easy as using any other pedal to create your own style of playing. I think you will really enjoy the U12, it is fun to play, and it doesn't weigh as much as two necks. I agree about starting on the U12 asap and get one of Jeff's courses on the B6 or C6 to get a feeling of how the chords are formed as related to the E9 tuning. You will be surprised as to how many places on the neck you can get the same chord with different variations. Then slip that knee lever in when appropriate, floating from one variation to the other for some really fine smooth sounds that you can only get on the U12. You can also use the AB pedals and some knee levers with the so called B6 pedal kicked in or out for some really nice changes. You will be amazed at the versitility of the U12. If you don't have a band to play with and you are computer savy, purchase "Band In The Box", a software program that will emulate a back up band. You will improve greatly playing with back up. I hope you enjoy your steel guitar adventure.

wes

David Doggett · Post by **David Doggett** » 30 Mar 2004 11:17 pm

Kiyoshi, get a U12 as soon as you can. 90%of the E9 you already know is there, and you will be able to play it ignoring the extra strings right away. Your thumb will take a few days to adjust to the D string not being there (the D will be on a knee lever). But that doesn't take long. Then, with or without a lock, you can begin to discover the B6 stuff.

Unlike a D10, the E9 and B6 frets are all related to each other; so there is less relearning of frets, and no shifting of frets as you go back and forth. The B6 root chord is always at the IV fret of your E9 key, and the E9 root chord is always at the V fret of the B6 key. A very neat thing is that the B6 V fret chord resolves to the E9 I chord when you release the E lower lever.

You just don't get these kinds of relationships on a D10. Yes, 10% of C6 is not on a uni, and 10% of E9 is not on a uni. But in return for that missing 10% in either mode, you get the 90% of the other mode. So you have 180% at your fingertips from note to note. And there are many interesting interactions between the two modes that are not necessarily on either neck of a D10. For example, in B6 mode, the E9 B pedal changes the B6 neck to a B7 neck.

Buy a used uni, but be careful. Make sure it has 6 or more pedals and at least 5 knee levers. And make sure it has something very close to the Newman setup. There are many very strange "unis" out there, and being down in Mexico City, you will have to get the setup back to standard by yourself. Also, try to get something with gauged nut rollers, like a Zum and a few other uni brands. On a uni you spend a lot of time at the 1st fret (C6, F9, etc.) and get a lot of string rattle with ungauged rollers. A uni is a more demanding design for manufacturers, because so much has to be packed into the one neck, and it all has to work well together. Most of the pedals have 3 or more pulls, which demand very well adjusted easy playing mechanics. I would stay away from guitars over about 10 years old.