do keyless guitars sound different

Jeff Hogsten · Post by **Jeff Hogsten** » 6 Apr 2004 12:09 am

I have heard that keyless guitars do not sound the same, what do you all think. I would like to hear from some of the manufactures that make them I tried a Klein once and loved it

Winnie Winston · Post by **Winnie Winston** » 6 Apr 2004 2:25 am

One thing the keyless does is gets rid of all the overtones which come from the long strings in back of the nut.
Had a long talk once with Bud Carter about this-- it's why he won't make a keyless.
I know that I have never had any complaints with the sound on my Kline, although a few folks have said that it sounds "too pure."
I never heard anything wrong with the two-eneded keyless BMI guitars, and the Anapeg-- well-- you gotta hear it to understand.
My two cents

JW

Dale Dorsey · Post by **Dale Dorsey** » 6 Apr 2004 3:45 am

Well, I've never played one but have heard Tom Brumley play his Anapeg many times both in a public and private setting. All I can say a lot of it is in the hands, the guitar is wonderful as well. Tone and sustain to die for! I wouldn't be afraid to buy one for my only steel.

Dan Dowd · Post by **Dan Dowd** » 6 Apr 2004 4:28 am

All you need to do is listen to Bill Stafford, Jeff Newman and Joe Wright to name a few and judge for yourself. I would not go back to a keyed guitar after playing them for 30 + years.

Ernie Pollock · Post by **Ernie Pollock** » 6 Apr 2004 4:43 am

I have a Kline S-12 Universal that to me, sounds like something right out of Heaven. I have had several Klines, and one Sierra Keyless and they all sounded good to me. I have also played S-10's & D-10s and cannot really say any of them sounded 'bad'. I guess I just love steel guitar? Maybe thats it. I know I hardly ever break a string with a keyless - so thats a good thing??

Ernie Pollock :}

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Erv Niehaus · Post by **Erv Niehaus** » 6 Apr 2004 6:02 am

I put a keyless tuner on an old Sho~Bud. With less string to stretch behind the nut, it lessened the throw necessary to raise or lower a string. That was the good part. The part I didn't like was the hassle to change a broken string. I took it off. I really couldn't tell any difference in tone.
Erv[This message was edited by Erv Niehaus on 06 April 2004 at 07:03 AM.]

C Dixon · Post by **C Dixon** » 6 Apr 2004 6:43 am

'Tis true, the "overtones" created by keyed guitars are what most players like to hear. Keyless guitars do not have this. I believe Bud Carter is correct.

Keyless guitars also have another subtle problem. Everything else being equal, there is less sustain above the 12th fret on keyless as on keyed guitars. I know, I know; some scoff at this, but believe me it is true. There is a pro player who bought a Sierra Guitar a number of years ago.

He noticed it right off the bat. He had them make him the same guitar, only keyed. There was that sustain (he was used to) immediately. I too notice it on any keyless guitar I have ever sat down to.

Then again, it may NOT be "sustain" we are hearing, but the overtones. Whatever the case, I prefer the overtone sound of the keyed guitar over the keyless.

Never the less, I still prefer the keyless, for if nothing else, it is almost totally free of hysterisis; which drives me bananas. I also agree the keyless guitars are not as esthetically appealing (to most players) as a keyed guitar.

I feel they look chopped off and ugly. This is why I would not buy a keyless until I found a builder who would make one as long as a keyed guitar. I found one and I am delighted about it.

Jeff, because you generated this thread, you are apparently concerned about this. I strongly urge you to consider this BEFORE you purchase a keyless. Your concerns are legitimate, so please don't be swayed by the claims that the above problems do not exist. Because I assure you, they do.

Admittedly there are a number of keyless players (I am one of them) and some prefer the keyless sound, but most I have talked to, do not. So be as objective as you can before you plunk down the money. You might love one. The odds are, you won't.

carl

A Better Way

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 6 Apr 2004 7:46 am

Forgetting the sound quality (and I know that's a pretty big omission), I wouldn't own any guitar that required a wrench or a screwdriver just to change a string, as most of the keyless guitars do.

I do enough "fumbling" as it is!

Robert Porri · Post by **Robert Porri** » 6 Apr 2004 10:02 am

I am wondering about the overtone issue. How does the string length beyond the nut area amplify into anything audible unless you put a microphone right next to that area? Am I missing something about the transfer of those overtones to the entire string length that would be picked up by the pickup?

I have a keyless and do seem to have somewhat less sustain in the higher areas than I thought I would. But it's my first PSG so I don't have much to compare. I'm sure it's partly my inexperience with the bar.

Bob P.

Tom Wicks · Post by **Tom Wicks** » 6 Apr 2004 1:48 pm

I have one of each, I love my Willy keyless
and have just ordered a new G.F.I. keyless
just to see the difference. Tom

Ernie Pollock · Post by **Ernie Pollock** » 7 Apr 2004 4:19 am

As to using a
'wrench' to change a string on the keyless. On my Kline, I can change 2 strings while you change one on you keyed guitar. You still have to use at least some kind of cutting plier to cut the excess string off on the keyed guitars, on my guitar you just break it right off, no tool needed, and oh, we don't need a crank either, thats two tools for the keyed guitar, one little tuning wrench for the Kline!!

Ernie Pollock

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Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 7 Apr 2004 1:41 pm

Every element of guitar design affects the sound a little bit in some way. Most people can't hear the differences, but they do exist.

Your right hand technique affects your sound far more than the difference between keyed and keyless. If I have a tone problem, I look first to my right hand. Changing guitars is a solution of last resort, and it rarely yields satisfactory results.

The tonal difference between keyed and keyless is very small, to the point where some players say there is none. I think that the shorter body of a keyless guitar probably has more effect on the tone than the nature of the headstock.

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James Quackenbush · Post by **James Quackenbush** » 7 Apr 2004 2:00 pm

I have to agree with a lot of what is said here....I like the keyless design as it does NOT take as much time to change a string which is important if you are playing out ...The purity of the tone is nice on the keyless design as on some keyed models you actually hear ghost note's that ring out ..Overtones ?
I guess that would explain it , but sometimes the overtone's you are hearing are not exactly pleaseing to the ear.... I can get the harmonic's and overtones that I WANT to hear by hitting the string a certain way ( "it's all in the hands" ) and don't have to rely on the strings behind the headstock to give me harmonic's or overtones, especially since they may or may not be the ones I'm wanting to hear!! ... I do agree with Carl also about the sustain issue...I well built keyless steel will not have too much of a problem....One thing that the Sierra and the Excel have that make up for the loss in sustain , is the longer scale ...The Sierra is a 25" inch scale and the Excel has the 25 1/2 inch scale ...This not only gives you more sustain, but also add's more tension to the strings, so your lower strings ring out better ..Neither the Excel nor the Sierra break many strings as a result of the added tension, but I guess the other companies don't want to make the longer scale ..I think the longer scale and keyless headstock's should go hand and hand !!..Again, both keyed and keyless have thier good and bad ...I like the smaller body on the keyless also ...It's lighter for guy's who want to be able to pick up thier steel for gigging or ??...It's also smaller and fit's better on some of the smaller stages that are around ..just my opinion ..YMMV ...Jim