Problem with fasteners on Carter undercarriage...

[Jim Palenscar]

If you don't want to or can't get a match on the part consider a soldering gun/iron. The other thing that can be done w a dremmel is to cut a slot in the top of the torx screws and use a standard screwdriver to remove it.

[Richard Sinkler]

I don't find any of the T10 torx drivers I have to be a loose fit. I just bear down on it and slowly turn, and hope they break loose. Using a Dremel and making a slot might work, but most of the time when I meet up with a slotted screw that has been over tightened, I strip the head on it. And, to make the slot, it would be very difficult if they were in the guitar. Since Bob is moving everything, he has to remove the cross rods (which I think he has already done). He might be able to put the crossrod assembly in a vise and try to loosen them up. I am not familiar with a easy-out, but that may work. The other thing would be, to take it to a machinist to remove the screws. But that may cost more than just buying new bellcranks.

[Clete Ritta]

...Using a Dremel and making a slot might work...

Older thread, but thanks Richard! Luckily, your tip worked for me recently, when a hex bolt stripped on a bell crank I was moving. At least I can now tighten and loosen it again to move around, till I can get another.

[chris ivey]

bob c. ...i'm glad 'you' had to endure this annoying hassle and not me. thanks for the heads up on problems and remedies.
carters are basically such great affordable steels these days that i've always considered them.
now at least i've been warned and will know what to look out for.

[Bob Carlucci]

They are pretty easy to work on they really are if only things weren't so tight,. I just do NOT understand however what these great steel builders were thinking when they way overtorqued eveything, used awful Torx fasteners , and then Loctited everything for good measure... It just made no sense.. When I had my Carter built to spec, and it was delivered, it was 100% perfect, and never needed a thing. It was perfect for me.. However after 10 years I sold it, and it was no longer the perfect steel for the buyer.. mechanical items must be taken apart at some point, and builders should be aware of that fact.

[Clete Ritta]

Bob, I agree Carters are not too hard to work on, if it's not too hard to loosen the bolts! Im not very mechanically inclined. I bought my D10 here on the forum and everything was fine. No adjustments or changes required. The only reason I tinkered with it was the P0 franklin pedal. Many would consider this an added option (as I did). Over time I realized that I just never used it much and considered other changes that would be more useful to me. Take off two hex tuners, remove two rods (try not to lose brass barbells), loosen two hex bolts, reposition bellcranks and reassemble. Everything was going well till I got to loosening the second hex bolt and heard a "pop" as the wrench stripped the head. Now Im scratching my head thinking, "Now what!?". Cutting a slot in the head with a dremel worked. Im just glad I scoured the forum for threads on this and came to yours. I was about to do something drastic I may have regretted otherwise!

[J R Rose]

Hi Guys, I have a 2002 Black SD-10 that I really like. When I got it a few years ago someone had really made a mess of it not knowing what to do. Installed bigger rods with the do it yourself hook. Their was nothing really bad about it, it just needed parts and screws replaced. I did have some screws that were really tight but was able to get them out without makeing a mess. Contacted Al Brisco who was very good to deal with for parts. He had everything I needed it just cost a of money and then shipping was even worst. Nothing against Al but I for one wish someone in the U.S. could have brought all that he did. I do not know if Ann had it on the market or not? If I had knowed I would have. But with that all said I think the Carter is a very well desiged steel. I ordered and brought the first D-10 bright Red steel that they made back in the ninty's.
Wish I never sold it so that is why I have this black one, love it. J.R.

[Bo Borland]

More than a couple years ago I had a conversation with John about this same problem on a Carter I owned.
He told me they engineered the steel so that it would be difficult for an owner to molest.
No return springs to be mis-adjusted, tight screws, etc.. his reasoning was to keep the number of over adjusted steels to a minimum and not overload the repair department.

[Dan Beller-McKenna]

He told me they engineered the steel so that it would be difficult for an owner to molest.

I have to confess; I resented this about my Carter,and it's one of the reasons I got rid of it fairly quickly. Just feels a little condescending. I reserve the right to completely screw up any steel I own.

Dan

[Richard Sinkler]

More than a couple years ago I had a conversation with John about this same problem on a Carter I owned.
He told me they engineered the steel so that it would be difficult for an owner to molest.
No return springs to be mis-adjusted, tight screws, etc.. his reasoning was to keep the number of over adjusted steels to a minimum and not overload the repair department.

Not sure if that is true or not, but I had several conversations with John, and bitched to him about those screws, and he never mentioned engineering the guitar so no one could "molest the guitar". But you never know what someone has told to someone else. It kind of seems that way. All John did was apologize and send me some spare bellcranks with the torx screws (I had to leave the one's I stripped in the guitar), some pull pins. He did mention the went with the torx screw because of the low profile of the head so it didn't interfere with the rods mounted on, or going through the bellcrank in the lowest position (nearest the guitar bottom).

[Bo Borland]

Richard,
molest was my word.. John was referring directly to the lack of spring adjustments when he told me this..

I don't think he had the screws intentionally set too tight .. probably more coincidence than intentional.

I sold mine because of an internal resonance in the changer that annoyed me.

[Bob Moore]

I found that sometimes if you try to tighten slightly and that seems to break free the screw then loosen the screw. Something to try. Bob

[Jr. Watts]

Here is a little trick that will sometimes help a slipping torx or phillips bit qrip better. Coat the tip of the screwdriver or bit with valve grind compound. It has gotten me out of a bind a few times. I bought a small can at my local auto parts store.

[Ned McIntosh]

Has anyone tried Loctite "Freeze & Release" on these recalcitrant fasteners?

I have used it with great success on brass brake-bleed nipples stuck (due to corrosion) in aluminium brake-calipers. It might save a lot of damaged tools and fasteners.

[Bobby D. Jones]

Around a lot of machine shops are 2 scary words. Silver Solder, Many different types, melt temp. and holding strength. LOCK-TITE. They are so many types of Loc-Tite. And don't go by the color go by the number on the bottle or tube and spec. sheet. A John Deer Dealer I was around, was having a problem with some of the bolts holding part of the blade on a Bulldozer vibrating loose. A salesman came in, And they told him their problem. He put a 5/8 or 3/4 bolt in a vice. Screwed a nut on with his fingers and put some type of Lock-Tite product on the threads. Told them to let it set 24 hours, Then unscrew it with a torque wrench. I asked a music playing friend a few days later who worked at the dealership. He advised 90 Lb. torque was required to break that nut loose the salesman had screwed on with his fingers.
As a Police Armor on any scope base or rings I removed on an unknown gun, HEAT FIRST then a screw driver or wrench. If the screws you are having problems with are a little out of size on the torque wrench hole, I suspect some type of impact wrench may have been used in installing the problem screws for speed. Like Lug nuts on a wheel of a vehicle, Over impact wrench tighten they must be removed with an impact wrench. They may have been Loc-Tited also. I use a cooper soldering tip attached to a propane torch burner for quick heat right on the problem screw itself. Good Luck in finding a solution to the problem and back to Happy Steelin.

[Richard Sinkler]

Richard,
molest was my word.. John was referring directly to the lack of spring adjustments when he told me this..

I don't think he had the screws intentionally set too tight .. probably more coincidence than intentional.

I sold mine because of an internal resonance in the changer that annoyed me.

Molest is a good word. I also hate the non-adjustable springs. I've had to do the cut off coils thing, and recently just replaced 2 springs. John would never tell me if they used power screwdrivers to tighten those screw.

[Paul Mozen]

I know this is an old thread but heres my solution. I used an electic driver with a clutch. Set the torque low , 4 or 5. A T10 bit with extension. Boom, no problem. Hope that helps someone.

[Richard Sinkler]

More recent developments here. I bought a couple of these Klein T10 T-Handle torx wrenches. I found that putting it into the screw and tapping the handle with a hammer helps to loosen the screw. These Klein are the best I have found, even better than Craftsman.

[Bobby D. Jones]

Sounds to me like they may have used some sort of powered impact wrench to install those screws, An impact wrench can tighten things till, They can only be removed using an impact wrench. That hammering vibration will loosen them.

That was 1 of the problems when impact wrenches were first used in installing tires, Have a flat tire and you could not remove the lug nuts. With wrench provided with vehicle.

[Richard Sinkler]

Sounds to me like they may have used some sort of powered impact wrench to install those screws, An impact wrench can tighten things till, They can only be removed using an impact wrench. That hammering vibration will loosen them.

That was 1 of the problems when impact wrenches were first used in installing tires, Have a flat tire and you could not remove the lug nuts. With wrench provided with vehicle.

I asked John Fabian about any powered tool used to install those, and he said they didn't. But I was always skeptical.

[Rich Upright]

From the info I have gleaned here over the years, it seems that Carters have way too many problems to be considered reliable.
My LeGrande D-10 has never needed any adjustment in the 20 years I've owned it, and my Mullen D-10 only needed to have the E lowers synced once.

[Richard Sinkler]

From the info I have gleaned here over the years, it seems that Carters have way too many problems to be considered reliable.
My LeGrande D-10 has never needed any adjustment in the 20 years I've owned it, and my Mullen D-10 only needed to have the E lowers synced once.

Been playing mine since 1999. No more problems than other makes I have owned. Broke parts on a ZB, Kline, Williams, 2 Sho-Buds, the Super Pro passed me off so much with multiple broken parts, I pretty much gave away that piece of useless junk.

[Gene Tani]

Rich: you only have to remove a Torx once and replace with allen (cap head) or phillips (dome head) screws, and the old style dog bones can be replaced with the thru-barrel with set screw style that are sold by a fellow whose name escapes me. That takes care of most of the issues. I stripped a couple Torx's but after that, I would hold driver in right hand and push up on cross shaft with left hand as hard as i was pushing down with the driver.

Also look at how Rusty Young used his Carter, i doubt any steel was ever subjected to harder use (and in fact this oen was for sale...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GsfgWcVbwXo

[J D Sauser]

T10. BUT… need a NEW (not worn) QUALITY wrench… which is getting harder and harder to find. Some of the Chinese junk being sold even at HomeDepot is of such lousy tolerances you risk to strip tha ver shallow Torx head.

Soething else mist steel guitar builders have historically issues with because of the traditional presence of aluminum and stainless steel (which I believe to remember those screws on the Carter bell cranks were, is Galvanic Corosion (which is worse in humid and Coastal regions!) where stainless debilitates aluminum. Binding of the two metals can occur in the process. https://www.albanycountyfasteners.com/b ... -aluminum/
NO Loctite was used on Carter bell cranks.

Yes, Carter guitars were set TIGHT and “knocked together” (pushing the changer plate and keyhead “together”. Tight always beats gappy and loose.

I’ve re-setup my 2 Carters sevral times over, only a Sierra Sessiom was even easier (more room due to the aluminum chanel body). But that was 20+ years ago and my guitars were fairly young.

… JD.