What to avoid in a used PSG?

Tom Althoff · Post by **Tom Althoff** » 24 Dec 2003 7:28 am

If I asked "What used brand/model" should I buy I'd be opening up a can of worms with each guy having their own favorite choice.

So let me take the opposite approach. What guitar would you NOT buy used and why?

Does mechanical "wear" come into play in a used PSG? Do the holes get elongated in belcranks and pivot bearings? Does the additional play really matter or are there adjustments that can make up for the wear?

Are there any specific models that have a weak spot that wears or fails or was just plain poorly designed to begin with that should be avoided?

Did any manufacturer use ball bearings / roller bearings in their guitars or are they all nylon/brass/aluminum sleeve bearing surfaces?

I'm just daydreaming about someday buying a $2,000+ PSG and don't want to pick the Edsel of the litter.

Ron Randall · Post by **Ron Randall** » 24 Dec 2003 7:54 am

I will pass along a tip I learned the hard way. Be sure to see the guitar and play it. Check all functions. Then decide.

I got the "green weenie" once by using only email and photos. One month later, and $300 worth of parts, I got it working.

I trust the folks here on the Forum, but beware on eBay.

Ron

Tom Althoff · Post by **Tom Althoff** » 24 Dec 2003 10:28 am

Ok...I'm taking notes here...

Rule #1 .. Don't buy any guitar on E-bay!
(thanks Ron)

C Dixon · Post by **C Dixon** » 24 Dec 2003 10:55 am

I have deleted this post since this is twice today I have missread the author's question. Unless I can stop doing that in the future, it is probably BEST if I not post.

I sincerely apologize to the author.

God bless you,

carl[This message was edited by C Dixon on 24 December 2003 at 01:07 PM.]

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 24 Dec 2003 10:59 am

Avoid Gibsons, Harlins, and early 60's MSA's, fingertip Sho~Buds, 60's Marlens, ZB's, and cable Fenders (unless you're really in love with "that sound"). Avoid the "It's gotta be an Emmons" mentality. If you're just starting out, it will be years before you're able to tell a Mullen from a Zum, or an Emmons, or anything else! Likewise, avoid steels made outside the U.S.A.. Anapeg is a fabulous steel, but finding an experienced, well-stocked parts dealer isn't easy!

I'd say don't buy it if it's over 30 years old. If it is, chances are it's got a lot of wear, and it may be limited in design (such as a single raise/lower). Remember that some parts may be hard to get for not-so-old steels (15 years old), or steels that are no longer made (like an MCI), so make sure it has what you want on it when you buy it. (ZB's are cool, but adding 3 or 4 levers will be a major undertaking in cost and time).

If you're a "newbie", have it checked by a knowledgeable steeler. Chances are, there's one close-by who will be more than happy to help.

Avoid "exotic" steels, like S14s, likewise avoid U12s if all you want to play is country music. (About 97% of all Country steelers play S10's, or D10's.)

Don't "overbuy", either. Most players (including most pros) don't really need 10 floor pedals and 9 knee levers.

Lastly, don't worry about the resale value unless you only plan to keep it less than a year. Also, any avoid "home-made" pedal steels.

Right now, pro model Mullen, Carters, MSA's, and Marlens seem to be the best buys for someone starting out.

Keith Murrow · Post by **Keith Murrow** » 24 Dec 2003 11:15 am

..[This message was edited by Keith Murrow on 26 October 2004 at 03:55 PM.]

RON PRESTON · Post by **RON PRESTON** » 24 Dec 2003 11:58 am

Yea,
And don't buy ANY Steel that is over $6,000.

[This message was edited by RON PRESTON on 24 December 2003 at 11:59 AM.]

Ed Naylor · Post by **Ed Naylor** » 24 Dec 2003 12:22 pm

Steels are like autos or any other "Mechanical" item .They work or don't work.The most important thing is Workability" Does it stay in tune?Do the pedals return properly? etc. Forget "Looks", "color" etc. and get a reasonably price guitar.Within 6 months you will want something different.95% of guitars are 'useable" as a Beginner. Ed Naylor Steel Guitar Works

David Friedlander · Post by **David Friedlander** » 24 Dec 2003 12:44 pm

Having succesfully purchased many nice guitars on eBay I would contest "rule #1".
Use the forum- if you find something on eBay that's interesting, run it by some of those poeple here who might be able to give yo insight.

I'm sure Carl's heart in in the right place, but his post is way off base.
If you're waiting for a car that gets 100 miles to the gallon, looks like a Porsche, and costs $10K, you're going to be riding the bus forever.
My first guitar is a mid '70's Marlen- I did get lucky because everthing worked. I LOVE thgat guitar to this day- I'd never sell it.
I would say that you'll find a lot of folks who purchased brand new guitars weren't as pleased as they expected.

Tom- what's your target as far as budget?

David Deratany · Post by **David Deratany** » 24 Dec 2003 1:50 pm

I think there is no substitute for having someone who knows check it out, and I think that may override brand considerations. If it is working ok, there's no reason to think it will give you trouble any time soon, if ever. There are good instruments to be found perhaps in even the least respected brands, and horrible ones aren't unknown in the best. Faith alone won't guarantee you a good instrument.

Tom Althoff · Post by **Tom Althoff** » 24 Dec 2003 2:03 pm

Thanks for all the feedback.

I'm not sure I follow or agree with Ed's logic of "Within 6 months I'm going to want a different one". I'm hoping to avoid that.

I shopped around for a few years before I chose my wife. I think I can afford to do the same with my next guitar.

Darn you Carl! (not for posting it..but deleting it!)

I was just about to comment on something I didn't know about...the vertical knee levers..are there 2 designs...one with a single ended pivot and the other with some other kind of arrangement? I'd like to know more about that.

Ron Preston - That's an easy one to follow!
My checkbook is self limiting.

David- Budgeting between 2 and 3 grand. And I have to sell the ham radio station to raise the first 2,000 otherwise the 1,000 matching fund from the wife will not kick in.

Right now I'm just making up a shopping list of things to avoid and look out for. I'm not actively shopping for a new guitar..just planning ahead. I liked Carl's list of what the "dream" guitar wouldn't have.

I bought my Subaru because the things that I change over the life of the car are easily reached. The starter is on top of the engine, the alternator is right there too, the belts are out front and accessable. The oil filter is not tucked away in a deep recess etc. The McPherson struts are poorly designed in that the brake line has to be dismantled to pull the strut. It's threaded through the bracket..not clipped into it. When I changed the struts I had to bleed the brakes. So I nibbled some of the bracket away so I could pull the brake line off next time wihout disconnecting it altogether. Would that stop me from buying another Subaru? No. I know what to do the next time I buy one. I'd like a guitar I could maintain for 20 years and am willing to modify it for ease of parts replacement but prefer to have one that doesn't need parts to be changed often.

I've seen talk of pedal rods breaking on some guitars... that's the type of thing I think is a defect in design or manufacturing and would like to avoid. Things wear out..I accept that. Things that crack or separate (unless dropped off of a building) have something terribly wrong with them.

[This message was edited by Tom Althoff on 24 December 2003 at 02:08 PM.]

Tom Althoff · Post by **Tom Althoff** » 24 Dec 2003 2:15 pm

Keith..your experience with the new guitar matches my car experience. The only big problems I've ever had were with show room cars that were never driven until I bought them. The first one to buy them get the factory recalls and defects.

Used cars with "low mileage" might mean they were in the repair shop a lot more than a high mileage vehicle.

A "hardly ever been played" used guitar might mean "Won't hold tuning through a 5 minute song".

Which goes back to my original question... I'm wondering if there are guitars with "bad reputations" for certain things. The potmetal knee lever assemblies on the Sho-bud is an excellent example and would be something I would want to avoid.

David Friedlander · Post by **David Friedlander** » 24 Dec 2003 3:29 pm

Carl,
I LOVED your list- I just didn't think it was realistic- please put it back if you can!

I guess that my love for guitars has a lot to do with "personality".
Most times the axes with strong distinct flavors have more bad attached then something more a more moderate, and stable personality.
The beloved Emmons P/P is the perfect example. It's got a sound folks crave but it's a real pain the the elbow to upkeep.

Tom, with your budget you'll have a great selection. Williams makes some awesome guitars for one. You can get a brand new laquer model.

Ed Naylor · Post by **Ed Naylor** » 24 Dec 2003 3:39 pm

Having dealt with thousands of players- For example a new 3x2 player will soon discover he "Needs" 2 more knees plus an "UP" lever. The other scenario is deciding he wants to do "Western Swing" and needs A C6 neck.I am not degrading or promoting any guitar-ONCE YOU START you constantly want to "Improve" your style or equipment. . Start out slow and "Gradually" switch or add the "Goodies" the main thing is DON'T GET EXCITED" Ed

David Doggett · Post by **David Doggett** » 24 Dec 2003 3:48 pm

Tom, I've bought three used pedal steels in the last year. Forget e-bay. Buy here on the Forum. The price will be way better, the seller is much likelier to be knowledgeable and trustworthy. And the selection will be better.

Somebody above said nothing over 30 years old. I'd cut that in half. In fact, I would say research the new pedal steels being made today, and buy one of the best sellers used. You can find many of them less than 10 years old. They will probably be in great condition, and if not, they have modern mechanics that can easily be repaired or upgraded. Start out with a standard S10 or D10. I play a universal, but they are a little complicated for starters. Good 10-year old or less standard brands with standard setups are available here on the Forum on a weekly basis. Go for it. That old classic or exotic brand should wait for later - and hold on to your good used standard until you see how the collector's item works for you.

Budd Kelley · Post by **Budd Kelley** » 24 Dec 2003 3:50 pm

OK Ed, if I ever get a new guitar, I promise not to get excited.

However, after I leave,you may hear Mr. Seymour make a little noise as he heads to the bank to make a deposit!

------------------
Carter-Starter, the cutest little Peavey you ever saw, and now a BJS bar!

Tony Prior · Post by **Tony Prior** » 25 Dec 2003 3:15 am

Tom, I wouldn't be afraid to make a purchase from EBAY..just be certain the deal is valid.Contact and call the seller and get a meeting of the minds going.

I would first recommend a purchase from here in the BUY and SELL area if you can't find a Steel locally.

I have made two very fine purchases from EBAY and a very fine purchase right here on the Forum BUY and Sell.

I like what Donny has stated above as it is simple and offers up legitimate basic starting out information , that a newcomer to Steel would not know.

A single Ten modern era Steel with 3+4 of a known brand or a D10 with 8+4 or more ,of a known brand will do the trick and get you started in the right direction.

Carters, Emmons Legrandes, Mullen, Fessendens, Zum, GFI etc..will all give you a ton of fun from the get go and will serve you well.

I personally would recommend getting a Steel with at least 4 knee levers. Other than that
just like anything else make sure your deal is protected as much as possible against unknowns.

Quite frankly, if you purchase a Steel which is less than 5 or 6 years old the chances of it being in "Erector Set" condition are pretty slim. Chances are you will buy one and play it for six months or so and move on to another anyway..Thats what we do...

And keep this in mind..and you already know this..
You can buy a brand new BMW from the local dealer thats nothing but trouble..so don't be afraid to buy used as you have planned..just know that it's possible it may have a few minor issues that may need attention, the key word is minor.

I bought a D12 MSA ( EBAY)from California which needed severe cleaning and lubrication. After doing that I discovered the guitar was basically brand new, it had just been sittin around for a few decades.

Another EBAY item was a D10 Sho-Bud Professional from Denver.It too needed the rack changer system to be dismantled , cleaned , lubricated and re adjusted. But for a Steel that was basically 30 years old this is normal. After the cleaning it was awesome.

I bought a 3 year old Carter D10 8+5 from a Forum member and that was a great Steel. I ended up trading it locally with a few bucks for another D10 Carter, 9+8 ,and that is my only Steel now. I sold the Sho-Bud and MSA not for any other reason other than I didn't feel like having $$$ wrapped up in guitars in cases, that I tripped over daily.

Good Luck
T[This message was edited by Tony Prior on 25 December 2003 at 03:28 AM.]

George Crowder · Post by **George Crowder** » 25 Dec 2003 4:12 am

Tom, Take a trip down to Orange, VA and visit Billy Cooper's Steel Guitar Shop. With Billy's inventory, you will be able to try almost any brand of steel, vintage etc. Further, you will be dealing with some of the finest people in this business.

Craig A Davidson · Post by **Craig A Davidson** » 25 Dec 2003 7:08 am

The best way to avoid PSG problems is to buy from somebody who knows PGS's. Like Bobbe S., or Billy Cooper, or other dealers. There are too many to mention. I don't want to offend and leave anybody out. If you buy from one of them, the guitars are checked before they are sent. They might seem to cost more but are worth it in the long run.

------------------
1985 Emmons push-pull,Evans SE200

David L. Donald · Post by **David L. Donald** » 25 Dec 2003 8:09 am

There are some older steels that are priced quite well,
IF you are prepared to be a bit of a steel mechanic.

But then also " Long after the joy of low price wears off,
lingers the curse of poor quality."

A trip to a good steel shop is not a bad suggestion at all, even if it is a long drive.

Multiple steels to try, compare, and hear played in competant hands, and also the staff are not gonna be quiet, so you will learn things, not just see or read things.

I did buy my steel, sight unseen (pics only). On the forum.
I did hear it over the phone at my sisters and said give him the cash.
But before I shipped it over here it went to a top notch steel mechanic who went over it top to bottom
and packed it RIGHT. I have not for a moment regetted that.
Thank you Tommy Cass.

I also knew I would become a steel mechanic, because there's only one guy who knows steels anywhere near me.
And no repairs shops for 1,000km... yes that far.

One good clue is :
When you see guys posting, and you see they list 2-3 or more steels that they own, note what they are.
Anybody with 3 steels, knows steels, and chances are they have some pretty good choices.
[This message was edited by David L. Donald on 25 December 2003 at 08:12 AM.]

CrowBear Schmitt · Post by **CrowBear Schmitt** » 25 Dec 2003 9:23 am

i prefer buyin from a good steel shop
Bobbee Seymour - SteelGuitarNashville - Tenn
Danny Hullihen - Harrison Music - Michigan
Duane Dunard in Troy Missouri
Billy Cooper in Va
Scotty's in St Lou
they back up what they sell
you can find them in the "links" up above
under "Steel Vendors"
or from some one here the Forum
for a PSG i consider Ebay to be risky
that don't mean there are good deals there but it's kinda like playin 7 card stud
Good Luck Tom

Merry Christmas

[This message was edited by CrowBear Schmitt on 25 December 2003 at 09:24 AM.]

David Friedlander · Post by **David Friedlander** » 25 Dec 2003 2:48 pm

I'm saying that with Tom's budget, he can buy a brand new guitar.
If he speaks to the manufacturers and finds one he likes, he can get an S10, or SD10 with 3 pedals and 5 knee levers.
I don't agree that a subsequent guitar will be neccesary in 6 months.
I played on my first guitar, a Marlen 3/4 for ten years- and still play it all the time.
Yes, there will be many who wish to taste others- I'm firmly in that camp- I love variety in guitars- but if you get a great one to start with, it's always great to keep your first axe, no?

Nicholas Dedring · Post by **Nicholas Dedring** » 25 Dec 2003 6:39 pm

Wow.

If you are ready to spend even $2000, you can get nice, reasonably recent gear here in the Buy and Sell.

for $3k, you can get a quality, new guitar custom built for you, as far as I have seen. There was a gorgeous new Fessenden D10 8+4 I saw here in a shop a little while back, for $2999.

I will add that the thing I was most worried about was getting a steel I needed to "put work into"... even if it's just a copedant change, you don't want to get a guitar that's your first one (practically) and have to tear the thing apart to get it work right. Something recent, or something that's old and has gotten a set up/going over by someone like ricky davis, or billy cooper, or bobbe seymour, or a number of others (can't think of the rest of the names now, sorry...) and you will be very happy, I have no doubt.

It is easier to add things with a guitar that is from a currently existing builder, but if you see/hear something that you really like, that is from a dead company, don't let that necessarily stop you... if it's what you want.

If you buy used, you can get most of your money out in trade or sale... get what you can buy and use now; but for the kind of money you mentioned, you can get something you will categorically NOT outgrow. You may like something else better (or think you would), but stuff for $2000 and up should give you no trouble.

David Doggett · Post by **David Doggett** » 25 Dec 2003 10:08 pm

I'm not sure what part of New York state you are in, but your closest steel guitar shop is probably the one in Massachesetts. I forget the name and address, but you should be able to do an internet search and find it.

Roger Shackelton · Post by **Roger Shackelton** » 26 Dec 2003 3:00 pm

Hello Tom

It may be best to do your steel guitar shopping at the ISGC in St. Louis next Labor Day weekend. In the mean time contact all the steel guitar builders listed in the links on the FORUM and request brochures from them and maybe you can narrow down your choices from the brochures you receive.

Roger