Opinions Needed!

Cameron Reagin · Post by **Cameron Reagin** » 27 Apr 2014 11:03 am

Hey guys!
I've been lurking around on the forum for a little while now, and I have already gained some great knowledge and insight! Playing the pedal steel is the one instrument I've always wanted to play (besides guitar) and I feel like I have a decent ear for it to be just starting out. I haven't been playing (or trying to play) steel for very long, I have a grasp on the major chord grips and how the foot pedals work so it's still a work in progress! At this point I'm playing on what seems to be an old homemade steel I borrowed from a friend. From what I understand it is a pull release system. I have been able to get the foot pedals functioning as they should, but haven't been able to get the knee levers to work. So at this point all I've had to work with are the foot pedals. Already it's been somewhat frustrating because either the pedals won't stay in tune for very long, or no matter how many times I tune them or adjust my bar placement, it never seems to be completely in tune when the pedals are pressed. The pickup also doesn't seem to be the best by far.

So my question is would it be worth trying to get the parts to get it in fully functioning shape, or just to buy a nice used guitar? I'm a student so I'm on a very limited budget until finals are over and I start my summer job. I have had my eye on a Emmons GS-10 that is for sale on here, it isn't all that far from where I am now, and I may could swing getting it. Would it be a good starter and serve me for a while? From all I've read the ideal setup would be a 3x4 but it is only a 3x2. However, extra knee levers could be added, right?

Thanks for the help!

Ken Campbell · Post by **Ken Campbell** » 27 Apr 2014 11:13 am

Yes. Buy the Emmons. The whole ride is a process. Change is good. But if you can snatch up that Emmons....

chris ivey · Post by **chris ivey** » 27 Apr 2014 11:13 am

yes..you could buy something, but........you've already got the oddball junker and some steel player friend may be able to fix it up (for free) for minimal use just to get you started...just to save $1000 for awhile.
even if you're just using the two main pedals you can learn a few things.

Lane Gray · Post by **Lane Gray** » 27 Apr 2014 11:20 am

Remember that on MOST pull-release guitars, strings that raise get tuned at the keyhead WITH THE PEDAL DOWN, you tune the open note at the right hand endplate.

The mechanism may be strange, but it's simple.

Cameron Reagin · Post by **Cameron Reagin** » 27 Apr 2014 11:50 am

chris ivey wrote:yes..you could buy something, but........you've already got the oddball junker and some steel player friend may be able to fix it up (for free) for minimal use just to get you started...just to save $1000 for awhile.
even if you're just using the two main pedals you can learn a few things.

Well, thats the main problem...back home there aren't many (if any) steel players that I know of. So everything I've been learning has been through YouTube or just sitting down and playing around to tracks.

Lane Gray wrote:Remember that on MOST pull-release guitars, strings that raise get tuned at the keyhead WITH THE PEDAL DOWN, you tune the open note at the right hand endplate.

The mechanism may be strange, but it's simple.

This maybe where I've gone wrong. I've been tuning the open string at the keyhead, and tuning with the pedal down at the endplate.

Butch Mullen · Post by **Butch Mullen** » 27 Apr 2014 12:25 pm

I would get the Winnie Winston Pedal Steel Guitar book.It might show you how to tune the guitar you have, A lot of info in that book. Forum member Terry Pendrey has one for sale now.

Eric Philippsen · Post by **Eric Philippsen** » 27 Apr 2014 12:40 pm

Think about it - you're spending a lot of time trying to fix, figure out and tune the guitar instead of practicing it. The kicker, of course is that the price is right because the steel is on loan from a friend.

I've had pull-release guitars. Yes, there are those who absolutely believe that they are wonderful instruments when adjusted correctly. I just think they're ok and that there are other pedal steel mechanisms I'd much prefer over them.

A 2-knee lever Emmons student model would be ok. But adding a third knee lever to it is an easy job to botch up, especially on a push-pull. Many of the Emmons I own have had a well-meaning owner do just that.

What to do? Keep saving your $$ and buy something that's at least a 3x3 or better. Keep doing research, keep reading the Forum posts and keep your eye out for "the one" that will indeed show up one day.

Cameron Reagin · Post by **Cameron Reagin** » 27 Apr 2014 12:40 pm

Thanks for the heads up! I looked in the forum store last night for the Winnie Winston book and realized they were sold out!

Tom Gorr · Post by **Tom Gorr** » 27 Apr 2014 12:46 pm

From a pull release to a push pull? From the frying pan into the fire. Find yourself a good used Msa classic or vintage xl, 3x4. Pro instruments for beginner price.

Jim Williams · Post by **Jim Williams** » 27 Apr 2014 1:06 pm

On the pull releases I had, a sho bud Maverick and a Market Rite kit built ( could be what you have, if so God help you), it was like Lane says. If you get it misrtuned badly enough, pedals / levers may not work at all or may not have enough range.

Could you post a few photos of it, particularly underside and closeup of changer?

When no pedals or levers engaged the fingers hooked to the pedals need to be in contact with whatever is in back of them ( back being the changer end of the cabinet) on the ones I had this was the end of the adjusting screws. When engaged, the active fingers should hit a front stop. This is a bit of a balancing act. Note that on a lever that LOWERS pitch, the finger may work the reverse of the positions mentioned above. In other words at rest it should contact the front stop, and the adjustment screw head when activated.

Cameron Reagin · Post by **Cameron Reagin** » 27 Apr 2014 1:08 pm

Eric Philippsen wrote:Think about it - you're spending a lot of time trying to fix, figure out and tune the guitar instead of practicing it. The kicker, of course is that the price is right because the steel is on loan from a friend.

I've had pull-release guitars. Yes, there are those who absolutely believe that they are wonderful instruments when adjusted correctly. I just think they're ok and that there are other pedal steel mechanisms I'd much prefer over them.

A 2-knee lever Emmons student model would be ok. But adding a third knee lever to it is an easy job to botch up, especially on a push-pull. Many of the Emmons I own have had a well-meaning owner do just that.

What to do? Keep saving your $$ and buy something that's at least a 3x3 or better. Keep doing research, keep reading the Forum posts and keep your eye out for "the one" that will indeed show up one day.

I'll try and get some pictures posted of the mechanism on the steel I have now so I can confirm that it is a pull release system. I'm not 100% positive on that. But from the pictures I've seen of a push/pull, what I have is MUCH simpler.

So are you saying that with the Emmons, it wouldn't be an easy job to add the one or two extra knee levers?

Lane Gray · Post by **Lane Gray** » 27 Apr 2014 1:27 pm

If you look at the thread on how to tune the push-pull, they're similar to the pull-release, but the lowers get reassigned to a second half of a finger. Raises on strings that lower still need to have enough slack to allow the lowers to bottom out.
It's kinda like some older simple carburetors: they may be simple, but if they're out of adjustment, they're gonna work lousy.
Clem Schmitz has some instructions on how to work on the push-pull.
It'd be easy to add extra knee levers to a push-pull or pull-release, but it's also easy to get them all wonky.

Mike Perlowin · Post by **Mike Perlowin** » 27 Apr 2014 2:23 pm

Tom Gorr wrote:From a pull release to a push pull? From the frying pan into the fire. Find yourself a good used Msa classic or vintage xl, 3x4. Pro instruments for beginner price.

I agree. I used the green MSA shown in my avatar for 25 years, and never had a problem with it.

The relatively low financial value of used MSAs is not indicative of their quality. They made a gazillion of them, so they are not at all rare or collectable. And in the years since they were made (many by Bud Carter) there have been new innovations (some of which were developed by Bud,) including triple and quadruple raise changers, tunable split screws, square cross rods (which don't affect the player, but make it easier to work on the undercarriage,) and lighter weight bodies.

These used MSAs now sell for $12 to $1,500. The same price as the better student guitars, and a lot less than the price of a professional grade steel of comparable quality from other builders.

Cameron Reagin · Post by **Cameron Reagin** » 27 Apr 2014 2:56 pm

Here are some pictures of the guitar I currently have. The only missing pieces I have are the rods for the knee levers. I'm all for getting this one in playable condition, I just don't know of anybody in Georgia that knows how to work on a steel.

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Jim Williams · Post by **Jim Williams** » 27 Apr 2014 3:37 pm

Wow...different than mine. I wonder if that isn't made from a few different guitars...anyone?? Top of that changer looks pretty rough...can you tell if anything is binding up?

Cameron Reagin · Post by **Cameron Reagin** » 27 Apr 2014 3:47 pm

Nothing is binding, I haven't noticed anyway. I know one reason why one of the pedals wont stay tuned to pitch it because there isn't a nylon nut on the end of the rod, just a regular nut (which was my doings).

Lane Gray · Post by **Lane Gray** » 27 Apr 2014 4:25 pm

Adjust the collars between fingers and endplates (in concert with the pedal stops) so that when the pedals reach the stops, the fingers hit the edge of the hole in the deck. Then tune the raises at the keyhead (for instance the C# of the fifth string), and use the screws in the endplate to tune the open note (the B, for instance).
Once you get them set right, they may be primitive, but they're rock solid.
I suspect it's a handbuilt job

Jim Williams · Post by **Jim Williams** » 27 Apr 2014 9:43 pm

The undercarriage design actually looks better than a lot of "student" models. If you could find someone around there to help you get everything adjusted out and cleaned up a bit it probably wouldn't be too bad.

Mike Perlowin · Post by **Mike Perlowin** » 27 Apr 2014 10:14 pm

The fretboard is from a Dekley.