Bought used Zum awhile back and want to change copedent

Bill Fuentes · Post by **Bill Fuentes** » 14 Mar 2014 12:51 pm

Anyone in Dallas want to help me change copedent on a Zum?

Bought a guitar from a forum member way back and I never really put anytime into learning - so now I've uncased it and learning the ropes from the ground up again which includes familiarizing myself with all the changes - to me the copendent needs to be as common as possible so I can make sure I'm learning the way that best suits me

I know there are many proficient players here that can play on any instrument - but I'm dead set on getting changed to something somewhat "standard" (I know there is no "standard"

Back when I got the guitar I started putting together copendents of many Zum players so I could average out what is somewhat normal - I won't post all of it but here is a snapshot of mine plus a couple of other players - I assumed that Jeff Newman was a good start. Rookie player with a fancy rig

I appreciate you fellas!

Jim Eller · Post by **Jim Eller** » 14 Mar 2014 6:57 pm

Isn't Bruce at the Dallas show?

Bill Fuentes · Post by **Bill Fuentes** » 14 Mar 2014 10:05 pm

Every year it's the same - Spring Break - and I spend the time with my kids so I can't always make the show - same with this year, it would have to be after the show weekend before I could talk and meet with some helpful brother

Thanks!!

Lane Gray · Post by **Lane Gray** » 15 Mar 2014 11:51 am

If you got a full tank of gas, Mickey could do it right quick. But he's in College Station.

Bill Fuentes · Post by **Bill Fuentes** » 15 Mar 2014 5:05 pm

Mickey eh? College Station, no problems I have two girls down there a Freshman and a Sophmore - Aggies!

Mickey Adams · Post by **Mickey Adams** » 15 Mar 2014 6:04 pm

Bring her on....!! jetdrivr@me.com

Jay Jessup · Post by **Jay Jessup** » 15 Mar 2014 8:43 pm

I guess someone should ask, why change? I can't see where you are missing anything really important, especially if you are just getting started, looks like you have enough stuff in all the right places to last you for years of learning.

Bill Fuentes · Post by **Bill Fuentes** » 17 Mar 2014 9:40 pm

I did homework to understand the raises and lowers. I'm a visual guy and had to lay it out nice and slow so I can grasp and have for future reference.

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Bill Fuentes · Post by **Bill Fuentes** » 18 Mar 2014 7:27 am

I've messed myself up on the 4th string tuning - it has 3 raised and 1 lower (split)

All the raises are tuned but now the LKR E to D# is sharp and I can't crank in the hex nut any further to flatten it into D# (Strobo Flip on Newman E9) - plus there feels like it should split also. It was working fine till I started tuning the wrong hex nuts yesterday, thats why I made the visual guide so I wouldn't do it again

dang it

John McClung · Post by **John McClung** » 18 Mar 2014 9:39 am

Bill, I much admire your neat chart of what pull rods do. I'm working on the same type of chart for my D12 Mullen, all my splits and Bradshaw gizmo's have made it hard for me to remember what every rod does. What program are you doing this chart in?

Bill Fuentes · Post by **Bill Fuentes** » 18 Mar 2014 9:49 am

John, I just used PowerPoint - kinda made a rectangle and inserted little hexagons and changed their color etc.

I've really got myself in a corner by messing up my 4th string tuning - to me that Blue Hex nut does nothing since it's connected to the frame? Argghh - I'm stuck

Good luck with the PowerPoint - I could always send you mine and you could adjust

Gary Peaslee · Post by **Gary Peaslee** » 18 Mar 2014 1:14 pm

Bill - the blue nut may be a return stop. These are used on strings that are both raised and lowered, and that return sharp after the lower. Try each one of the raises followed by the lower. Do any return sharp? If so, tune the string down to pitch with the blue nut.

Lane Gray · Post by **Lane Gray** » 18 Mar 2014 1:54 pm

Is there a cap screw in the bar on the deck behind the changer? If so, and you have (or want) to split the D# and F# levers, you tune the F note with the nylon nut, and the D# with the cap screw. It acts as a positive stop and it can't go lower than the cap screw allows.
The screws I refer to are the ones on the 4th and 5th strings here:

John McClung · Post by **John McClung** » 18 Mar 2014 2:28 pm

Bill, thanks, but I've got mine underway in QuarkXPress, a page layout app I"m very fast on. I'll just keep plugging along.

One copedent note: I have the string 4 raise to F# as well and really find a lot of uses for it. But my E's up and down are both on my right knees, and I do find it useful to raise E to F, then higher up to F# with LK2 (same place where my+F# change is located), and that's a lot smoother in the locations I use. But it's completely a non-standard placement of changes on my Mullen, not everyone is willing to deviate that far. And the use of those changes sequentially isn't critical, either.

Bill Fuentes · Post by **Bill Fuentes** » 18 Mar 2014 3:27 pm

Lane , no cap screw . I really messed up by adjusting everything in and out on that 4th changer - to no avail. No matter what I do, in the end that little bugger will not flatten down to D#. The split tone is gone but the half stop is still there (in other words it still goes halfway down, then full down but the note is only a single note - the D# that won't get flat!)

On another note I updated my drawings , the blue nut on 4th bottom is actually black, and the rod just connects to a center brace under the guitar, I'm afraid I messed that adjustment up too - this frustration level is back to when my lil ol Emmons S10 would get out of whack! darn it

Lane Gray · Post by **Lane Gray** » 18 Mar 2014 3:54 pm

Have you watched the fingers in operation? Mine starts dragging the raise finger along for no reason when it needs a drop of oil.
Also check for a ball end getting in the way.
SOMETHING is stopping the finger. $2.00 says it's something small and obvious that you're overlooking.

Bill Fuentes · Post by **Bill Fuentes** » 18 Mar 2014 4:15 pm

Lane, I don't see anything different than before - it all started when I started turning the wrong hex nuts

and can't find my way back home

John - yep that would be another change (Right knees) I couldn't handle

Gary, that hex nut is actually black and I've messed it up too because I can't get it to do much of anything

Jay - great point - I should never touch anything!

Les Cargill · Post by **Les Cargill** » 18 Mar 2014 4:47 pm

Bill! Howzya?

Is this your first all-pull? - you mentioned an Emmons before. I am *assuming* the Zum is even an all-pull.

<begin>

Sometimes, you just gotta back some or all the nylon nuts out to where they do not make any change at all, and start over. All-pull guitars will "overtune" - the nylon tuning nut is too tight - and it can be very confusing. The changer finger is outside the linear operating range and you find out that steel guitar changers *rotate*.

I've been working on an old MSA and this has happened to me multiple times, usually when I don't have the rod with the correct length between the changer and the bellcrank.

Wiggle the knee lever/pedal when you're going for a nut to tune to make sure you have the right one.

</guessing>

Hopefully, I'm not insulting your intelligence here.

Lane Gray · Post by **Lane Gray** » 18 Mar 2014 5:09 pm

What Les said.
Here's two avenues to pursue , try #1 first:
1) back off all 4 nuts til they have no effect, even when pedal or knee engaged (probably overkill, but do it), then tune each change working from top down.

That should fix it, if you haven't mucked with the undercarriage. If not, try
2) take it to Mickey.

Bill Fuentes · Post by **Bill Fuentes** » 18 Mar 2014 7:45 pm

Well hey there Les. I went ahead and tried that approach again - backing off all hex adjusters on the 4th string fingers until no lever or pedal changed anything.
(1) Then tuned open string to E -
(2) Adjusted all the raises first (LKL(F) / C pedal(F#) / LKL2 (F#)
(3) Adjusted the lower (LKR) - same thing happens , I get a sharp D# but I can't crank the adjust hex screw any further to get it to flatten out, as a matter of fact if I crank it in too far (maxed out) it affects the open E.

As for the wiggle the pedals and levers - I went further than that by following the rods to the cranks, levers, pedals, fingers - and built an elaborate visual guide as seen above.

On the Emmons I could go underneath and move a collar to help adjust, on this thing I'm going to have to learn .

I guess my assumption is that there is something else that needs adjusting beside the 4th string changers

Thanks to all for all the replies and helpful insights - I'm putting it in the corner for now and will start my learning and practicing again on the Emmons S10

It's only a 3/3!

Lane Gray · Post by **Lane Gray** » 18 Mar 2014 9:12 pm

If you don't see anything stopping the travel, try getting A DROP of oil on the pivot rivet.
From your description, the knee lever has plenty of travel, but that much of the travel doesn't have an effect. That means SOMETHING is making the raise finger follow the lower finger. If you have adjusted the return spring, it might be either too tight or too loose. If you haven't, then it's not likely.

Bill Fuentes · Post by **Bill Fuentes** » 19 Mar 2014 9:07 am

well well well, after oiling it up and putting it aside and having some coffee, a thought occurred to me - when I bought the guitar way back I pretty much put it and the Emmons away because too much was going on. So I thought to myself, since I haven't ever changed the strings - what if the 4th string is the wrong gauge? went ahead and replaced it with a .014 and I think that did the trick! I think

Mickey Adams · Post by **Mickey Adams** » 29 Mar 2014 5:59 am

If the e lower will not reach d#
1: The split screw is blocking the changer finger.
2: the lever travel need to be increased
The lowest lower on any string with a split screw, uses that stop.
The raises on string 4 (I see 3) should not be affected by the split screw, until the string is raised, and held, Activating the E lever at this point, you use the hex for the E lower to set the split, not the split screw... It is a finite travel device.
It appears you are well versed, so ease excuse me if I have posted "the obvious"..

Bill Fuentes · Post by **Bill Fuentes** » 3 Apr 2014 5:59 am

Thanks Mickey, I am truly thankful for all the info and suggestions - I am NOT well versed, far from it - that's what happens when you treat something as complex and fantastic as Pedal Steel as a off and on "hobby"

Thanks again!

mtulbert · Post by **mtulbert** » 3 Apr 2014 2:56 pm

Once again Bill my offer stands. I am in Plano, bring it over and we will get it tweaked for you.

Mark