Has any manufacturer ever used bearings?

George Wixon · Post by **George Wixon** » 26 Sep 2003 3:37 am

Just curious to know if any one has ever used bearings.
The cross shafts currently go into the frame rails and have no bearings.
The fingers have the rod going through the centers of them and have no bearings.
The reason why I ask is because with these parts constantly rubbing on one another, sooner or later they will wear.
I would think that the use of bearings would not only stop the wear but also produce a smoother action.
I don't know what effect it would have on the sound if they were to be used and maybe that's why there are none.
George

Dag Wolf · Post by **Dag Wolf** » 26 Sep 2003 3:41 am

The old Swedish "AWH Custom" steel used roller bearings on the cross shaft.
The pedals were very light... some said too light to play with shoes.

Dag[This message was edited by Dag Wolf on 26 September 2003 at 04:44 AM.]

Ole Dantoft · Post by **Ole Dantoft** » 26 Sep 2003 3:47 am

The Sierra uses delrin-bearings on almost all moving parts, except in the changer and it is a SUPER-quiet and smooth steel.

Ole

Jim Palenscar · Post by **Jim Palenscar** » 26 Sep 2003 7:46 am

I believe that the Bethel guitars have roller bearings. [This message was edited by Jim Palenscar on 26 September 2003 at 08:47 AM.][This message was edited by Jim Palenscar on 27 September 2003 at 10:11 PM.]

Jim Eaton · Post by **Jim Eaton** » 26 Sep 2003 7:59 am

Williams website says they use bearings.

------------------
Emmons D10 8/4 P/P -75'
Fessenden SD-10 3/5
76'Session 400
86'Nashville 400
Bandit 112

Jackie Anderson · Post by **Jackie Anderson** » 26 Sep 2003 8:24 am

Most people (though maybe not all) seem to have concluded that any kind of "bearing," especially of the ball or roller type, would have an adverse effect on "sound" if used in the changer finger-to-axle location. However, lots of steels use plain bearings or bushings, typically of nylon or Delrin, elsewhere, e.g. supporting the ends and middle of cross rods, where they sure help keep the action smooth and silent. I haven't heard anyone say that they have any other noticeable effect on "sound" in those locations. Ball or roller bearings probably could be used in those locations, too, but it might be overkill.

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 26 Sep 2003 10:26 am

Most manufacturers use some sort of bushing, and they work fine. Ball-bearings would be expensive, high-quality ones adding several hundred dollars to an already-expensive instrument. (They would also add a little extra weight!) Actual rotational movement of the parts in a PSG is very limited, and the bearings (with their few degrees of rotation) might not actually last any longer, or perform any better. The pins, bushings, and the cranks most manufacturers use (if properly cared for), will easily last 25-50 years. They are cheap, easy to make, and easy to replace.

What more could you want?

C Dixon · Post by **C Dixon** » 26 Sep 2003 10:37 am

what Donny said,

car;

John De Maille · Post by **John De Maille** » 26 Sep 2003 12:44 pm

My RusLer has bearings in the rollers at the bridge, near the headstock. It also uses oilite bronze bushings for the cross shafts underneath. In 27 yrs. I've never had a problem with anything hanging up, or sticking. (other than my fingers)

George Wixon · Post by **George Wixon** » 26 Sep 2003 1:46 pm

Thanks for the replies. I have no problems with either of my steels but was very curious as to wether or not any manufacturer ever used them.
I agree that there is small amounts of rotation in the areas and even while the metals rub on each other,(unless bushings are used) it would take years before the wearing would have an effect, so the use of bearings would probably be overkill.
George

Jim Bob Sedgwick · Post by **Jim Bob Sedgwick** » 26 Sep 2003 4:28 pm

George: As you say, the brass bushings don't wear fast, but believe me, they will wear out eventually. Delrin is like a Teflonized plastic, does not need lubrication and does not wear out. At least in one lifetime of pedaling. Delron also cuts noise as has been said before. JMO

Dale Bessant · Post by **Dale Bessant** » 26 Sep 2003 4:32 pm

If I'm not mistaken Ed Fulawka told me he uses some kind of roller bearings in his guitars, someone may have more knowledge on this as I havent spoken to Ed in awhile ...[This message was edited by Dale Bessant on 26 September 2003 at 05:33 PM.]

Winnie Winston · Post by **Winnie Winston** » 26 Sep 2003 8:09 pm

Of course, when you have stuff rotating, one thinks of bearings. I spoke to a machinist friend once, and mentioned the possible use of ball bearings to support the cross rods. He asked one question: "What RPM are we talking about?"
End of conversation.
When you figure out how to press a pedal so the cross shaft spins at 500 RPM, maybe we'll need ball-bearings.
For the 15 or so degrees of travel, and an RPM of .001, Delrin or Oilite bearings are just fine!

JW

jim milewski · Post by **jim milewski** » 27 Sep 2003 5:49 am

I thought of bearings in a toilet paper holder though

C Dixon · Post by **C Dixon** » 27 Sep 2003 6:39 am

Winnie, mega dittos

carl

Earnest Bovine · Post by **Earnest Bovine** » 27 Sep 2003 6:51 am

Angular velocity of steel guitar shafts is often closer to 100 RPM than .001 RPM.

Jackie Anderson · Post by **Jackie Anderson** » 27 Sep 2003 8:40 am

A fine point, Earnest -- that's an angle I hadn't seen this from before; I mean, it kind of puts a different spin on the whole question....

chas smith · Post by **chas smith** » 27 Sep 2003 10:54 am

I have needle roller bearings for the cross shafts in my Professional, does it make that much of a difference, probably not, but I do get bragging rights.

George Wixon · Post by **George Wixon** » 27 Sep 2003 11:59 am

Chas,
Do the bearins make it feel smoother?
I was thinking with less friction, you should get a smoother feel so to speak.
I've worked with delrin and it does have a low friction coefficient as well as machines very easily.
Things don't have to be rotating at 100rpm to feel friction.
George

Jackie Anderson · Post by **Jackie Anderson** » 27 Sep 2003 4:16 pm

No, they don't have to be up to 100 rpm to feel friction. In fact, if I'm not mistaken, the most critical point for friction is getting from 0 rpm up to whatever -- it's that initial take-off where you need to make it easier to get things going. If you have launched a wooden boat down wooden ways, you know what I mean -- you need a lot of tallow, or grease, just to get her goin' in the first place. So, while PSGs seem to function fine without much in the way of bearings, it seems they could only help, if you want to go the trouble and/or expense of using them (still, with caution about the importace of how vibrations are conducted from changer finger to axle to body).
[This message was edited by Jack Anderson on 27 September 2003 at 05:17 PM.]

Skip Mertz · Post by **Skip Mertz** » 27 Sep 2003 5:29 pm

Dick Miller used bearings on pedals and crosshafts and possibly other points as well
I am proud to have aquire I believe the last steel Dick built. It is an object of the finest workmanship I have ever seen in a steel guitar. Bearings make it smoother but from my experience they must be broken in a bit to make them fluid as they are a bit tighter when new. the fit and finish on this steel are second to none and I probably will donate it to the NYC Modern Museam of Art or somewhere it can be displayed as one of mans
technical achievements.

chas smith · Post by **chas smith** » 27 Sep 2003 5:38 pm

George, steel on steel, as I understand it, has very little friction. So that by itself would make it smoother, but there are a lot of other factors like the pedals, how much stuff is attached to the bell crank and the changer, as you know.

I've played other guitars that make mine seem kind of clunky by comparison, so then it's really a matter of what you get used to. I had/have a guitar where the E lever was/is like working a Thighmaster, and it had delrin bearings. I got tired of hearing "yo, fat leg" so I gave it up.

I've also used oilite, bronze bushings, like the ones John mentioned above, and they work just fine. Another issue that hasn't been addressed is how accurate is the allignment of everything underneith. Everything that is misalligned contributes to the lack of smoothness.

Peter Feller · Post by **Peter Feller** » 27 Sep 2003 6:28 pm

Bushings are a type of bearing, specifically a "journal" bearing. I use all types in my work building machinery, and the determining factors in selection are just what you'd think they'd be; radial load, axial load, rpm, duty cycle, enviromental concerns, access for servicability. Stuff like that. Journals are the greatest for high radial load, low rpm applications. Most heavy duty hydraulic systems have the pinions mounted in journals. To minimize the affect of the coefficient of friction of the journal you can increase the ratio between the radius of the applied load to the radius of the journal itself, just like PSG builders do with the nut rollers. (say a 3/8" diameter roller on a 1/16" diameter shaft) When kept properly lubricated, a journal bearing will last indefinitely. They seemed to work just fine on the wheels of the Conestoga wagons heading west. Don't worry that a simple journal is introducing stiction (that's a real word)into the system.

C Dixon · Post by **C Dixon** » 27 Sep 2003 6:49 pm

The two most common types of "moving" bearings are roller and ball. They are used extensively in automobiles and many other large items such as industrial motors.

However these bearings are designed to be rotated at least 360 degrees. This is important for proper internal lubrication of either the rollers or balls; and races (inner and outer). Also, unless a continuous "new" ball or roller surface is occuring, they are not as good as bushings in some cases, and can actually fail prematurely as a result of wear in one spot.

This is the case in a pedal steel guitar. Most all of the moving parts in a PSG move far less than 360 degrees. And their rotationl velocity is usually much lower than applications using roller or ball bearings.

So it is really better to use oilite bearings; or some of the space age creations such as nylon or delrin in a PSG.

carl

Bill Stafford · Post by **Bill Stafford** » 28 Sep 2003 5:50 am

Carl is exactly right! I was working at Sierra when we built a custom steel. The new owner specified roller bearings to be installed in all the cross shafts. (All of us in the factory knew the real purpose of "roller bearings", and also knew that this would not make the guitar play "easy" -so to speak. But we satisfied the customer and installed the bearings and it made not one spec of difference - as to the real reason for having bearings. With so little movement back and forth, the bearing would probably wear a groove, eventually, and then create another problem - which the pedal steel doesn't even need.
Carl, I was very impressed with what I saw of your work. Keep it up!! (I still say that you, Ed Packard and Mitsuo Fujii should all get together and build a really "problemless pedal steel".

Take care,..

Bill Stafford