National Reso-Phonic/Scheerhorn Collaboration

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Mark Eaton
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National Reso-Phonic/Scheerhorn Collaboration

Post by Mark Eaton »

Many are familiar with the superb resonator guitars of Tim Scheerhorn. The current price makes most other resonator guitars sound cheap. The starting price of these very limited production instruments from his one man shop at last notice was $10,200.

Mr. Scheerhorn is getting closer to retirement. To carry on the legacy Tim has entered into a collaboration with National Reso-Phonic here in California to produce to his very concise specifications a line of Scheerhorn lap-style resonator guitars. The first three were recently completed and shown at this past weekend's ResoSummit in Nashville, the annual workshop put on by Rob Ickes.

Currently there are three models, a rosewood/spruce Rob Ickes signature @ $3900, Honduras mahogany @ $2600, and maple @ $3000. For now, according to Eric Smith, the partner of Don Young at National, the plan is to produce a total of about 100 Scheerhorns per year.

I'm not sure how to make these images smaller, sorry about all the scrolling!

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Mark Eaton
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Post by Mark Eaton »

Prior to ResoSummit last week, Tim Scheerhorn brought the three early models over to Artisan Guitars in Franklin,TN for a photo shoot, as Artisan will be one of the dealers.

Artisan does an exceptional job of photographing instruments from multiple angles. Click on the link below to take you to Artisan to further peruse these new "Nati-horns."

When you get to the bottom of the spiel for each model, click on "Read More" and you will be able to view all the images from the various angles.

http://artisanguitars.com/category/prod ... sheerhorn/
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Bob Blair
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Post by Bob Blair »

Along with forumite Chris Bauer and Edmonton singer/songwriter/reso player Sue Decker I was at Artisan when Tim turned up with the prototypes. We got a chance to talk with Tim about them, listen to him play them, and play them ourselves. Over the course of the weekend I got to talk to Tim a bit more - he is really excited about the project and happy with the instruments. These are great looking and sounding instruments.
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chris ivey
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Post by chris ivey »

i would hope so.
i've got a '75 dobro i paid 200 bucks for. played many gigs and sessions with it. yes i'd like a better dobro but i'm broke.
my friend kathy barwick brought a scheerhorn into a club for me to check out. i thought it was beautiful. but i put it down. i don't like to get attached to things i can't have. i thought it was over 5 grand...but you say they start at $10,000. i can't imagine anything impressing me that much. i'd need a new set of ears first, then i still wouldn't pay that kind of money just out of principle. that's amazing that the maker can find any buyer at that price.
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chris ivey
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Post by chris ivey »

i'd like to get together all the people with 10,000 dollar resos and hear which ones are getting 10,000 dollars worth of sound out of them.

besides rob and jerry, what dobro player makes that kind of money playing dobro?
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Post by Rob Anderlik »

Chris:

Just to clarify, the price for the Scheerhorn's made by National range from $2600 to $3900 as detailed in Mark's post above. You are correct that the base price for a guitar made by Tim Scheerhorn is $10,200.
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Post by Mike Neer »

Seems like a match made in heaven. Keep production in the USA, a great little company like Nat-Reso which makes high quality products. I like it!
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Post by Andy Volk »

Nice guitars and National is a great company run by people who love and respect the instrument; great match with Tim.
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Post by Brad Bechtel »

I just got back from Resosummit, where these guitars were one of the hits of the festival.
The Rob Ickes signature model is one of the loudest guitars I've heard. When I first saw it, Bruce Shaw picked it up and strummed across the strings. I asked him to turn down the volume.
The mahogany model is just as sweet as could be, and it has that new mahogany smell when you put your nose to the sound hole. Delicious!
The maple model would be my choice of the three, but I'd take any one of them. It has a bit tighter tone than the mahogany, so I guess it depends on what you like.
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Post by chris ivey »

frugalhorn plus?

so...and i am curious ...if you line up, say, a goldtone beard, a wechter-scheerhorn, a national scheerhorn and a top of the line beard and scheerhorn.......have an ok local player pick the same tune....what are the differences i'm going to hear?

and if we amplify each with a fishman pickup and play it with an average band, will i hear $9000 difference between a goldtone and a top model? or even $2000 with the new nat'l? keep in mind crowd noise.
serious answers only, please.

are the new natscheers made with solid wood? no soundwell? all usa?

another thing i'm curious about is why the style of tailpiece has never varied from one brand to another.
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Post by Mark Eaton »

Chris, let me give you a little pre-National/Scheerhorn pricing history. And I paid less than you did in about 1976 for my pre-war, early 1930s Dobro which I still have.

I was at the the Father's Day Bluegrass Festival in Grass Valley in the early '90s (speaking of Kathy Barwick, she's been a regular there) and it was my first time meeting Jerry Douglas. He didn't have his legendary RQ Jones with him, he was playing a new Scheerhorn and it was a thing of beauty. It was either his first or second 'horn, and "I felt lust in my heart." He gave me Tim's contact info in Michigan. Tim sent me a price list with a couple photos that I still have buried around here somewhere. I recall the base price was around $1800. Might as well been have been $18,000 because as a partner in my own business in the Monterey area struggling to keep its head above water with a wife and three little kids at home, an $1800 dobro wasn't in the cards.

Tim inched up the price over the years until around 2000 or so he was getting $3000 for his guitars. But he couldn't keep up with the demand and the waiting list grew longer and longer. By the time I was actually ahead of the game financially (for several years anyway), the price had gone up to $5000 I believe in late 2003, and beyond the price itself there was a wait time of about 3 1/2 years. I didn't want to wait that long and played Todd Clinesmith's guitars at the nearby Healdsburg Guitar Festival, loved them, and he had one ready for me nine months later and I met him at the festival in Grass Valley to pick up the guitar in June 2004.

Later Tim raised the base price to $6000 and announced he was closing the waiting list because he wanted to slow down. He was building 40 or so guitars per year as a one man operation.

He could raise the prices and people who desired Scheerhorns didn't bat an eyelash, they jumped on board. Because the deal is this - folks would own these things for a bit then put them up for sale and get a price that was more than they paid for them. Very unusual in the guitar world, since we're talking about modern instruments, not something like a vintage Martin, Gibson, or Fender.

When Tim decided to cut back on building, he announced that he would be building guitars that were his own personal creations without input from the customer, and he would call this "the wish list." To get on this list the price would start at $10,200. If your number came up on the list you could take it or leave it on his latest creations. He's backed off on just making strictly his own wild creations and has worked with customers who want certain wood combos, etc.

I think he's making a dozen or so of these a year now, don't know for sure. But he's still selling them. Likely very few are going to pro dobro players. And, some folks have been putting up these wish list guitars for sale, but it seems this time around they're not getting what they paid for them in the examples I've seen. That jump from six grand to $10.2K was a major, major leap.

:whoa:
Last edited by Mark Eaton on 19 Nov 2013 1:23 pm, edited 5 times in total.
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Post by Mark Eaton »

Chris, I was composing my long post while you submitted yours. All U.S. materials on the Nati'horn (come on - this moniker rolls off the tongue real easily along with being a play on words) components with the exception of the Japanese Gotoh tuners. Solid woods, but obviously not all from the U.S. since there are a couple of tropical hardwoods involved.

And as far as applying common sense and logic to instrument pricing, I think you'd go nuts if you think too hard about it. In a recent issue of Acoustic Guitar Magazine, they profiled a builder from Santa Cruz named Jeff Traugott and his flattops start at around $25,000. The guy has a waiting list several years long.

Can Tommy Emmanuel or Tony Rice even tell the difference between one of Traugott's guitars and one that would still be very expensive at ten thousand dollars ? I have no idea.

More power to him that the guy can get that kind of dough and there are folks lined up and waiting. Reminds me of the old joke about why does a dog lick a certain part of his anatomy? Because he can.
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Post by Jouni Karvonen »

$$$$$
Resos of a good quality may cost more than the eastern sweatshop products and they sound better, but that does not justify the enormous price gap, i think. Plus there's a nasty attitude still going on in some of amerikan small businesses when dealing with us "outsiders", not replying to inquries. And i'm still trying to keep my '81 R Q Jones playable with an extra steel rod installed inside to fight the string pressure ovalisizing the soundwell. That plain mahoganny one did only cost the same as the top of the line Dobro®. And it still sounds better acousticly than most 4 grand resos i see and hear, not live too much, because of my remote domicile.

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There's been more of good suppliers too, with i still am glad to contact when in need.
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Post by Mike D »

To expound on Marc Eaton's comments on the 'ridiculous prices' of some custom guitars. What tends to happen is this:

A: Guitar builder makes a great product.
B: People discover this product
C: More people discover the product
D: So many people discover it that the maker can hardly keep up, so he raises his price and starts a waiting list.
E: Waiting list gets very long and eventually folks start selling their place in line, often for double and triple the price they locked in at. Folks also start selling their newly delivered instruments for double and triple the price they just paid.
F: The builder sees this along with an ever-increasing waiting list so he raises prices again and again. Eventually getting to the point of 10 and even 20K instruments.

I've seen this happen to a lot of builders over the last 15 or so years and the price is only reflective of what folks will pay. Most of these builders would never claim that their instruments are 10K (or whatever) dollars better than something else, they are simply charging what the market will bear. A totally reasonable thing to do. People want these instruments for the same reason that someone will pay 3X more for a Ferrari that doesn't perform any better than a new Corvette.
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Post by chris ivey »

mark...thanks for the history. pretty interesting!

i doubt i'll ever get past something like a beard goldtone with a fishman. but even that'd be nice, for me.


ps...i totally get the vette analogy..
biggest bang for the buck ever in a hot car
i can't afford one of them either.

i'm just lucky that i've stumbled on a few affordable instruments in my life. i guess i've gotten basically what i 'need'!
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Post by Brad Bechtel »

chris ivey wrote:frugalhorn plus?

so...and i am curious ...if you line up, say, a goldtone beard, a wechter-scheerhorn, a national scheerhorn and a top of the line beard and scheerhorn.......have an ok local player pick the same tune....what are the differences i'm going to hear?
I hear a difference in the attack and response of the guitar as you go up the price range. I own and love a Wechter Scheerhorn, but compared to a regular Scheerhorn, it isn't as full sounding and doesn't have as deep a tone. I heard the same thing with the Gold Tone Beards vs. the Beard guitars Paul Beard makes and sells. There were plenty of Wechter and Gold Tone guitars at Resosummit, and they held their own against the more expensive instruments, but when you play a higher end instrument, you can tell the difference.
and if we amplify each with a fishman pickup and play it with an average band, will i hear $9000 difference between a goldtone and a top model? or even $2000 with the new nat'l? keep in mind crowd noise.
serious answers only, please.
You might not hear the difference in an amplified setting with crowd noise. Then again you might if your ears are good. You'd definitely hear it in a recording session. Amplifying any acoustic instrument changes some of the tone of that instrument.
another thing i'm curious about is why the style of tailpiece has never varied from one brand to another.
I don't know, but I'm guessing that Tim Scheerhorn is happy with the style of tailpiece he offers.
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Post by Dan Mahoney »

[quote="Mike D"]To expound on Marc Eaton's comments on the 'ridiculous prices' of some custom guitars. What tends to happen is....

Mike, Your analysis is correct in most cases. A rare exception is Wayne Henderson, who builds arguably the best flattop on the planet. He only builds guitars for people he wants to build them for, mostly people he knows. And his price is about what you'd pay for a new decent Martin. He is not in it for the money. If you want one of his guitars you need to be around a lot, bring cookies, sweep the shop, etc. - or be a young local kid who is a killer player. He's very generous and one of a kind.
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Post by Mark Eaton »

I have the Clapton's Guitar book and Wayne seems like one-of-a-kind.

Mike D, I think you nailed it in your earlier post on the "boutique" luthier pricing phenomenon, in many cases.

Jouni, I've played a number of RQ Jones guitars. Some I've thought were very nice, and others I thought weren't so hot. Some folks think the greatest tone Jerry Douglas has gotten in his career was on his RQ Jones. That guitar now resides in the Country Music Hall of Fame. He told me after a show one time that he's always loved the guitar, but it's temperamental and subject to changes in the weather and so on and could be difficult to keep in tune. He said something like when the guitar would "wake up" in the morning, he wasn't always sure what it was going to sound like once he started playing. I was in Nashville three years ago at ResoSummit, and after it was over I went to Gruhn Guitars with a guitar-playing buddy who lives in the area. They had a nice looking, very ornate Jones for sale. I played it, sounded just okay. Might have needed new strings or a good setup, but when I played a new Beard Mike Auldridge Signature for comparison, the Beard blew the Jones out of the water. Wasn't even close.

Wayne Henderson played a show in the Bay Area a few months ago at former Waybacks member Stevie Coyle's store, "Mighty Fine Guitars" but it didn't work out for me to go, it's a pretty hefty drive from my place up here in the wine country.

I really wanted to attend because as fine a player and luthier Wayne is, I hear his stories at gigs are one of the best reasons to be there. Quite the character.
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Post by Gregg McKenna »

Some of the Jones guitars had Rudy's own spun cones and some had Quarterman's.
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Post by chris ivey »

going off topic now, sorry..but is there a short description of how a cone is spun? made? and would rudy's be better or worse...or some special and some not so much?
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Post by chris ivey »

as to nat'l reso collaborations, i don't believe i've heard or seen any wood body dobros made by them. are they really good?
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Post by Mark Eaton »

I guess Gregg is saying that the ones with the Rudy cones weren't so great? Or is it that the ones with the Quartermans weren't so great? I'm not clear on this either.

I do know that cones in general eventually wear out and need to be replaced.

Chris, what do you mean by National "collaborations?" This new deal with Tim Scheerhorn is a collaboration. They also have their newish Smith & Young resophonics, a division of National, which to myunderstanding they developed after consulting with some big 'grassers, because those guys weren't buying their National Model D squarenecks, which I think are pretty nice guitars, but they don't seem to have the "beef" when trying to hold their own with an in-your-face banjo or a loud, shrill fiddle..
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Post by Mark Eaton »

In addition to the newish Smith & Young production guitars, one in wood and the other in metal, they have been doing some custom work. I like to refer to this one as the Oakland Raiders Commemorative Edition. ;-)


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Post by Mark Eaton »

Video of Don Young spinning a cone at National:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xfT-DkLeb8o
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