maj7th chord? What you talkin bout' Willis?

Wayne Baker · Post by **Wayne Baker** » 20 Jul 2003 5:08 am

Some of you guys talk about the maj7th chord. Now, I know what a 7th chord is. Whats the difference between a 7th and a maj7th? And, what can it do for me? Thanks in advance.

Wayne Baker

Franklin · Post by **Franklin** » 20 Jul 2003 5:45 am

Wayne,

1. (C major) is C, E, and G notes

2. (C major 7th) is C, E, G, and B noteS

3. (C 7TH) is C, E, G, and Bb

Play these in order 1-3 to hear the most common use.

(C MAJOR SCALE)

C D E F G A B C

Interval numbers for scale notes

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8

Formulas

C major 1 3 5
C major7th 1 3 5 7
C dominant 7th 1 3 5 b7

Hope this helps,
Paul

William Peters · Post by **William Peters** » 20 Jul 2003 5:52 am

Wayne,

A Major 7th chord is like a regular dominant 7th except the 7th note is not flatted. It has a minor sound to it. As an example, a C7 chord is C, E, G, and B flat. A CMaj7 chord is C, E, G, and B natural. So, it has a minor sounding quality to it because the E, G, and B natural make an E minor chord on top of the C, E, G, which make a C major chord. Does that make sense to you? Pick strings 8,6,5, and 2 (no pedals) on your E9 to make an Emaj7, then you will hear what I mean.

Bill
Cougar SD-10, Gibson SG, Fender P-Bass, assorted PV stuff

Dave Van Allen · Post by **Dave Van Allen** » 20 Jul 2003 5:53 am

And, what can it do for me?

It will allow you to play "Color My World"[This message was edited by Dave Van Allen on 20 July 2003 at 06:54 AM.]

C Dixon · Post by **C Dixon** » 20 Jul 2003 5:53 am

Paul is sooo right.

It is interesting to note than in some countries they do NOT say C7, rather they say Cb7. In those places, C7 is understood to be Cmaj7. Paul clearly shows why.

One more tidbit, in most applications a major 7th chord like an 11th chord, are among few chords that must have 4 notes to sound correct according to many music theorists.

What is even odder is a 13th chord can sound quite right with just 3 notes. IE, Strings 5, 6 and 9 with the A pedal engaged on E9th.

May Jesus bring you comfort and joy all the days of your life,

carl

Lee Baucum · Post by **Lee Baucum** » 20 Jul 2003 7:45 am

Dave - If I remember correctly, that would be "Colour", not "Color".

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Lee, from South Texas
Down On The Rio Grande

Wayne Baker · Post by **Wayne Baker** » 20 Jul 2003 8:50 am

Hey, thanks guys. What would I do without you. As always, I'll take this info and put it to good use.

Wayne Baker

Larry Robbins · Post by **Larry Robbins** » 20 Jul 2003 3:26 pm

But...does the color of my world change if
played on an Emmons thats black in colour?

------------------
Sho-Bud ProII
"there's been an awful murder, down on music row!"

BDBassett · Post by **BDBassett** » 20 Jul 2003 7:05 pm

Oh the Major 7th. Without it David Gates and Bread would have just been another group of top notch LA session players. Neal Young might never have found his voice outside CSN&Y. Barry Manilow might still be writing MacDonalds commercials.

Face it guys...we owe a great deal to the Major 7th chord.

BD

Chris Brooks · Post by **Chris Brooks** » 21 Jul 2003 5:33 am

William,

It's a bit misleading to say that a major 7th chord has a minor sounding quality.

Yes, a I major 7 is nearly enharmonic with (has almost the same notes as) a III minor. So the III minor can substitute for a I maj 7.

But Wayne, a I maj 7 doesn't substiitute for a I minor.

A major 7 is still a "major" type chord. (Four basic types of chords: major, minor, dominant 7th, diminished). It is built on a major triad: 1-3-5.

Wayne, don't be confused by the nomenclature: In everyday musician talk, a "C 7th" = a C dominant 7th: Paul's #3.

To build chords, spell scales as Paul has done in his post. Then map out what each type and extension does according to the notes it is composed of, as Paul has started you out on.

Can you spell a major and minor scale (there are several) in every key? If not, that's a good starting point.

Regards,

Chris

------------------
now living in the Ocean State ....

Jim Cohen · Post by **Jim Cohen** » 21 Jul 2003 5:51 am

Just don't let the sun catch you cryin'...

Leon Grizzard · Post by **Leon Grizzard** » 21 Jul 2003 6:07 am

The dominant seventh chord has two main functions in popular music. The first is its traditional use as the V7 chord, resolving to the I chord. The V7 chord creates a feeling of tension and expectation of release. The I to V7 to I progression is the fundamental chord progression in Western music, and most human cultures have recognized a special relationship between a note and the note a perfect fifth above it. Additionally, the V7 chord contains the leading tone, the note one half step below tonic, and ear, having become accustomed to the tonic as the tonal center, is drawn to resolve the leading tone up to tonic.

Also, the V7 chord contains a tritone between the 3d and 7th of the chord, which is discordant, and produces tension which is released with the resolutin to I.

The second use of the dominant chord is simply using it as a major chord with a jangly sound - that is, embracing the tritone for is own color, as in blues and rock.

The major seventh chord, in contrast, does not have the tritone, and has a kind of sweet, schmaltzy sound. It is the usual chord form for the I and IV chord in middle of the road jazz. Think "Fly me to the Moon."

William Peters · Post by **William Peters** » 21 Jul 2003 6:10 am

Chris

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>
It's a bit misleading to say that a major 7th chord has a minor sounding quality. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I didn't mean to mislead.. but that is the way I HEAR it.

Bill

Tony LaCroix · Post by **Tony LaCroix** » 21 Jul 2003 8:07 am

This is an interesting thread. It's almost as if musicians develop a unique, personal relationship with the emotions that different chords evoke.

I think someone started a thread a while ago asking something like, "why do minor chords sound dark and sad?". VERY interesting stuff here that cuts right to the heart of aural culture and what it means to be a hearing, human being.

Personally, I've always found major 7 chords to be rather 'spacey' sounding. A non-resolute substitute for a more concrete chord, such as a major chord. Depressing, to a point, actually.

Jeff A. Smith · Post by **Jeff A. Smith** » 21 Jul 2003 8:11 am

(Four basic types of chords: major, minor, dominant 7th, diminished).

Chris, if you're including diminished as a basic type of chord, it's unclear to me why you wouldn't include the augmented.

Leon Grizzard · Post by **Leon Grizzard** » 21 Jul 2003 12:12 pm

Jeff Smith:

The augmented chord is (almost?) always a type of dominant seventh chord, and does not have a separate musical function like the other general types of chords - it is just a color change. As I think about it, I know I have seen non-dominant augmented chords called for, but I am pretty confident they are just used as a color change to a major chord, without a separate musical function.

Jeff Lampert · Post by **Jeff Lampert** » 21 Jul 2003 12:29 pm

David Gates and Bread

Neal Young

Barry Manilow

we owe a great deal to the Major 7th chord

Actually, based on this analysis, we might expect a grass roots movement to banish the major 7th chord from existence.

[This message was edited by Jeff Lampert on 21 July 2003 at 01:33 PM.]

John McGann · Post by **John McGann** » 21 Jul 2003 12:41 pm

The top of the major 7th chord IS a minor chord-

C E G B

EGB= E minor triad

Lots of extended chords wind up being triad over triad (or seventh chord).

So if you hear the chord from the root up, it should sound like a maj 7. If you hear 3 5 7 then indeed you are hearing a minor chord... As I understand it, we really hear the bottom note and top note of a chord the most easily, so keep those roots in mind.

If you play jazz, you are probably used to the "assumed root" concept where you play voicings that have the 3td and 7th in the bottom with color notes on top, and maybe not a root in sight...maybe best left for another thread!

Mike Perlowin · Post by **Mike Perlowin** » 21 Jul 2003 2:27 pm

The 4 chord the kicks off each verse of "Lookin' For Love" is a major 7th.

C Dixon · Post by **C Dixon** » 21 Jul 2003 2:56 pm

John,

You are correct. This is WHY, many believe a major 7th requires 4 notes. IF not then it does not sound like a major seventh. In fact it is the dissonance of the one fret separation (or octave) that give this chord its uniqueness.

The same holds true for 13th chords. There are others also, but these two are the most common. Incidently the 13th only requires 3 notes to give its distinct dissonance. IE, 3, 7 and 13th tones of the chord.

carl

Bill Monk · Post by **Bill Monk** » 21 Jul 2003 3:40 pm

It's a bit misleading to say that a major 7th chord >has a minor sounding quality.

As the I chord in a tune, no it doesn't sound minor.

But if you were to just play a Maj7 all by itself, unrelated to anything, it may sond minor, in fact it usually it will sound minor to me - specifically, like a minor 9th chord. Which it is: CMaj7 with an A in the bass = Am9, for example.

It's a strange thing, but if a chord doesn't have a low root in it, and is sounded all by itself, the ear will sometimes hear a chord "in the context" of some other note that isn't played.

I don't know if anyone can explain -why- that is, but it's pretty common among musicians. I first noticed it when doing some ear training years ago. It was a pretty weird experience, because I knew which chords where which and how to spell them, play them on guitar or keyboard, could easily learn songs by ear, etc. How could that happy little chord sound so dark and minor???

Figured out that my ear will sometime supply a root that's a minor third below a Maj7 chord and so it sounds minor. If the voicing is pretty high, and especially if it's voiced R-5th-7th-3rd (like the typical guitar voiing using the top 4 strings) it just sounds like a m9 to me. It just does.

This doesn't happen while a song is playing, are after one has just been played, only on isolated chords.

Sometimes a Maj7 will sound like a IV/V (dom7sus4) chord. Play a root-position CMaj7 with D in the bass, and there it is: the same V chord that's probaby in half the "new country" songs on the airwaves tonight.

There are a lot of other examples if you listen to isolated chords: a half-diminished chord sounds like a dom9 a major third down, diminished chords can sound like 7b9, m7 can sound like a 6th chord.

The ear/mind connection is a very odd thing, and while all the theory about basic chord types and what is major or minor, etc. isn't wrong, it would be misleading to think that's the whole story.

Jeff A. Smith · Post by **Jeff A. Smith** » 21 Jul 2003 4:51 pm

I don't know if anyone can explain -why- that is,

Bill, do you suppose it may just be something to do with the differing musical backgrounds of people? Maybe someone that didn't even know what a minor 9th chord was would be more inclined to hear the out-of-context voicing as a Major 7th.

if it's voiced R-5th-7th-3rd (like the typical guitar voiing using the top 4 strings)

I think that since I use that voicing more often as a major 7th, I'd probably hear it as such in a test situation, provided the root were played.

However, I had a strange thing happen yesterday at a rehearsal. An acoustic player/singer was leading a group together for the first time through a kind of unorthodox version of "Ventura Highway." I didn't know the key at first, and when she would play the IM7 (D) chord, she just played it by putting her first finger across the first three strings, at the second fret, probably without an audible root. Having heard but never played the song before, the strangeness of the situation, and the fact that as a guitarist watching her for cues and seeing that shape first as F#m7 or A6, it took me a bit to know what was going on. So I know what you mean about that one. [This message was edited by Jeff A. Smith on 21 July 2003 at 06:57 PM.][This message was edited by Jeff A. Smith on 21 July 2003 at 07:02 PM.]

Bengt Erlandsen · Post by **Bengt Erlandsen** » 21 Jul 2003 11:35 pm

One reason why a maj7 chord might sound minor could be because it fits in as an extension of either a IIm or a VIm where the notes of the maj7 whould be b3,5,b7,9.
If you try to hear it as a major sound different from the original maj7 it already is by adding an imaginary note below you would try to hear a major w 3,#5,7,#9 and that would to my ears not sound too good.

Also I think it is important to connect/visualize the numbers and letters in a way so you can see/hear the difference between chords.
Just spelling the chord as 1 3 5 or 1 b3 5, C E G or C Eb G don't tell you anything other than numbers and letters unless you know how this relates to different pitches or how they relate to positions on one string.
If I want a major I need to know how this looks on one string. The if my tuning allows it I can play it as a triad(all notes at the same time) using several strings.

Compare the difference between a major and a minor shown below.

<pre>
Major triad shown on 1 string

as numbers/letters key = C/ no specific key

| 1 |---|---|---| 3 |---|---| 5 |---|---|---

| C |---|---|---| E |---|---| G |---|---|---

| O |---|---|---| O |---|---| O |---|---|---

minor triad shown on 1 string

as numbers/letters key = C/ no specific key

| 1 |---|---| b3|---|---|---| 5 |---|---|---

| C |---|---| Eb|---|---|---| G |---|---|---

| O |---|---| O |---|---|---| O |---|---|---
</pre>

Bengt Erlandsen

David L. Donald · Post by **David L. Donald** » 22 Jul 2003 1:23 am

I suppose to stop the grass "roots" movement, I should add to the list
Gershwin, Errol Garner, Hoagie Carmichael, AC Jobim, Duke Ellington, Dave Brubeck, Wayne Shorter, Clifford Brown, John Coltrane, Bill Evans, Billy Strayhorn Rogers and Hart, Miles, Charlie Parker, Cole Porter... all use Maj7ths very well.

Enough good reasons not to banish the major7 chord on general pricipales. And totally wipes Jeff's list above off the boards. ( to his relief I suspect)

There is also ther classic run ;
major chord I, with a root, Maj7, Dom7, 6 decending run, to the IV chord from blues and rock tunes.
**********************
And there is the rarely used oddity the Major/Minor 7 chord.
Allegedly on C6 as
0 position, P 5,6&7, and lever G, strings 8,6,5,3 An interesting sound ( my G lever doesn't seem to work on this chord)[This message was edited by David L. Donald on 22 July 2003 at 02:27 AM.][This message was edited by David L. Donald on 22 July 2003 at 02:29 AM.]

Brett Cookingham · Post by **Brett Cookingham** » 22 Jul 2003 1:28 am

A Half Step!