| Author |
Topic: Can playing sharp be corrected? |
Chris Tweed
From:
Cardiff, Wales, UK
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Posted 20 Sep 2013 2:35 pm |
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| I was engaged in a conversation this week with some friends and a tutor in the local music college who teaches jazz double bass about the difficulties of playing unfretted instruments in tune. We talked about the discipline of playing without looking at where the left hand is positioned and I told her about how Buddy Emmons practised in the dark and she said she often played bass with her eyes closed. Then she mentioned rather casually that if someone played flat they could correct it, but if they played sharp there was little that could be done. Unfortunately, I didn't get a chance to quiz her on this remark, so I'm left puzzled and a little curious. Can anyone confirm if she is right and, if so, explain why this might be the case? |
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chris ivey
From:
california (deceased)
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Posted 20 Sep 2013 2:57 pm
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what she said sounds dumb to me.
if 'she' can't play in tune i guess she could just quit. that would solve the problem. |
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Bo Legg
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Posted 20 Sep 2013 3:31 pm
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If you play flat all the way thru a song or Sharp all the way thru a song then you are OK and can compensate.
But if you play flat some of the time and play sharp some of the time then you are just careless or tone deaf.
You can fix careless but if you're tone deaf take up Rock guitar. |
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Bill L. Wilson
From:
Oklahoma, USA
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Posted 20 Sep 2013 3:52 pm In Tune, Outta Tune.
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| WELL, The Old Road Hog, and The Cadillac Cowboys, played everything out of tune, and it sounded fantastic! That radio station WEAK, broadcast their music out across Rainbow Valley, every Saturday morning, to probably 10 or 15 people. And when Old Road Hog would introduce Porter and Dolly,"now friends, here's a couple of big'uns", it would just warm your heart! |
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John Billings
From:
Ohio, USA
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Posted 20 Sep 2013 3:55 pm
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| I found, that in the studio, if singers had the earphones too loud, they sang off key. Usually flat though. |
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Rick Schmidt
From:
Prescott AZ, USA
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Posted 20 Sep 2013 4:08 pm
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| It's easier to move your pitch up or down to the sweet spot on a steel guitar than on an upright bass... especially if you're playing the bass with correct left hand position and using a bow. Actually in my opinion, the steel is way easier to play in tune than the other fretless stringed instruments. |
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Elton Smith
From:
Texas, USA
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Posted 20 Sep 2013 5:41 pm
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Well if you can't determine the pitch get a fretted instrument.Or you can buy a stomp box that will do it for you.I don't think this problem will be hard to over come.
_________________
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Ray Montee
From:
Portland, Oregon (deceased)
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Posted 20 Sep 2013 7:01 pm What's wrong with doing it the old fashioned way?
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What ever happened to the practice of getting IN TUNE, PLAYING in TUNE.......and if that was difficult, take lessons?
For those that are unfortunate enough to be unable to tell "IN TUNE" from "OUT of TUNE"........
what can be said? |
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Bob Hoffnar
From:
Austin, Tx
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Posted 20 Sep 2013 8:05 pm
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What she said is ridiculous . People get gigs teaching and start believing there own bs.
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Bob |
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Keith Hilton
From:
248 Laurel Road Ozark, Missouri 65721
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Posted 20 Sep 2013 8:34 pm
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I like what Bob Hoffnar said---Bob you hit the nail on the head  |
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Clete Ritta
From:
San Antonio, Texas
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Posted 20 Sep 2013 9:15 pm
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| Chris Tweed wrote: |
| ...if someone played flat they could correct it, but if they played sharp there was little that could be done... |
IMHO I think the intention of the statement may have been that if you bend a note into tune that is flat of pitch (either singing or on steel, fiddle etc.) it may sound like a slur or Grace note (forgive me father, for I have sung out of key ). If you hit the note sharp and correct it to pitch, well, theres not much forgiveness as the ear instantly perceives it as out of tune. Both are out of tune, but bending up to pitch is much more acceptable than down (at least in Western music). I hear steelers and fiddlers sliding up to notes all the time. Even Sinatra sang this way. Of course timing is critical as well.
In a similar fashion, if a song is started slow and speeds up, it is generally less noticeable as a mistake than one that starts fast and then slows down to proper tempo. The dragging tempo usually sounds sluggish (except a ritardando at the end of a song), whereas an accelerando may sound natural even if it is a correction. |
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Olli Haavisto
From:
Jarvenpaa,Finland
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Posted 20 Sep 2013 11:13 pm
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Yes, I think that`s what she probably meant. Sliding up from a flat note is accepted musical phrasing, sliding down from a sharp note sounds more like correcting a mistake. IMO.
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Olli Haavisto
Finland |
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Dave Grafe
From:
Hudson River Valley NY
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Posted 21 Sep 2013 12:37 am
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Bunha nice folks hanign' out here on the forum today... 
Olli has it partly right, as you can "fix" a flat note on a fretless instrument and do it smoothly and musically, which is not so readily the case when the initial attack is sharp.
But there's more to it than this, and, despite some expert testimony here from some of the witnesses who were not there, Chris's friend knew exactly what she was talking about, and it is a very real phenomenon, but not one that you ever hear much about outside of classical music circles, and then mostly among conductors, teachers and the like, i.e. those responsible for getting others to perform musically.
There has been a historical tendency over the years for many orchestral musicians, particularly woodwinds and brass, to tune and/or play sharp in an ensemble setting because of the notion that "tuning a bit sharp makes the instrument sound a little brighter and more brilliant", with the result they begin to accept a sharp note as in tune; once ingrained this is next to impossible to correct. This entire issue is exacerbated by the clash between the - wait for it, here it comes - Equal Temperament and Just Intonation, as some instruments - keyboards, chimes, vibes, xylophones, etc., must be tuned ET, but the string section is all about JI, while the woodwinds and brass players are busy bending their way note by note trying to shepherd their own imperfect instruments through the intonation jungle, and ne'er the twain shall meet...
http://www.petersontuners.com/index.cfm?category=14&sub=85
http://www.violinist.com/discussion/response.cfm?ID=11273
http://www.tmea.org/assets/pdf/southwestern_musician/20WaystoTune_Sept2012.pdf
Y'all play nice now... 
Last edited by Dave Grafe on 21 Sep 2013 12:54 am; edited 4 times in total |
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Olli Haavisto
From:
Jarvenpaa,Finland
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Posted 21 Sep 2013 12:47 am
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Thanks Dave, interesting....
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Olli Haavisto
Finland |
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Chris Tweed
From:
Cardiff, Wales, UK
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Posted 21 Sep 2013 1:14 am
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Thank you, Dave, for that thoughtful and considered post. I will explore the links.
I didn't mention in the original post that another party to the conversation was a friend who has a PhD in "psycho-acoustics" (I love that term) who nodded sagely but made no comment. I shall have to track him down again and put this question to him, as well as the evidence you have presented.
Unfortunately, all of this discussion tool place at lunchtime and was cut short by the need to get back to the job. |
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Bill Duncan
From:
Lenoir, North Carolina, USA
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Posted 21 Sep 2013 3:21 am
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I have also found what John Billings said to be true, especially if you have phones covering both ears.
I read somewhere that in reality true "tone deafness" is quite rare.
_________________
You can observe a lot just by looking |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 21 Sep 2013 3:50 am
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Here's a piece of an interesting article from JazzOasis that contains (but offers no answer) to the subject:
| Quote: |
Pat Metheny on Kenny G
Question:
Pat, could you tell us your opinion about Kenny G - it appears you were quoted as being less than enthusiastic about him and his music. I would say that most of the serious music listeners in the world would not find your opinion surprising or unlikely - but you were vocal about it for the first time. You are generally supportive of other musicians it seems.
Pat's Answer:
Kenny G is not a musician I really had much of an opinion about at all until recently. There was not much about the way he played that interested me one way or the other either live or on records.
I first heard him a number of years ago playing as a sideman with Jeff Lorber when they opened a concert for my band. My impression was that he was someone who had spent a fair amount of time listening to the more pop oriented sax players of that time, like Grover Washington or David Sanborn, but was not really an advanced player, even in that style. He had major rhythmic problems and his harmonic and melodic vocabulary was extremely limited, mostly to pentatonic based and blues-lick derived patterns, and he basically exhibited only a rudimentary understanding of how to function as a professional soloist in an ensemble - Lorber was basically playing him off the bandstand in terms of actual music.
But he did show a knack for connecting to the basest impulses of the large crowd by deploying his two or three most effective licks (holding long notes and playing fast runs - never mind that there were lots of harmonic clams in them) at the key moments to elicit a powerful crowd reaction (over and over again). The other main thing I noticed was that he also, as he does to this day, played horribly out of tune - consistently sharp.
Of course, I am aware of what he has played since, the success it has had, and the controversy that has surrounded him among musicians and serious listeners. This controversy seems to be largely fueled by the fact that he sells an enormous amount of records while not being anywhere near a really great player in relation to the standards that have been set on his instrument over the past sixty or seventy years. And honestly, there is no small amount of envy involved from musicians who see one of their fellow players doing so well financially, especially when so many of them who are far superior as improvisers and musicians in general have trouble just making a living. There must be hundreds, if not thousands of sax players around the world who are simply better improvising musicians than Kenny G on his chosen instruments. It would really surprise me if even he disagreed with that statement. |
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Gary Lee Gimble
From:
Fredericksburg, VA.
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Bo Legg
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Posted 21 Sep 2013 8:32 am
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| Tracy Lawrence at any live venue. It's so bad it's good. |
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Alan Brookes
From:
Brummy living in Southern California
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Posted 21 Sep 2013 9:52 am
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Playing sharp is better than playing blunt.
But, seriously, most out-of-tune playing is a result of carelessness and not paying attention.
If, on the other hand, you're tone deaf, there's little you can do except keep your eyes fixed on the fret markings and hope for the best. |
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Posted 21 Sep 2013 10:56 am what I think
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It's harder to hear sharp than flat. Equal temperament has conditioned us to allow sharp thirds, which relaxed our objections to all notes that are played sharp.
(Just a theory)
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Ulrich Sinn
From:
California, USA
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Dave Grafe
From:
Hudson River Valley NY
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Posted 21 Sep 2013 12:27 pm
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| Quote: |
| It's harder to hear sharp than flat. Equal temperament has conditioned us to allow sharp thirds, which relaxed our objections to all notes that are played sharp. |
Definitely at the heart of the matter, b0b  |
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Storm Rosson
From:
Silver City, NM. USA
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Posted 21 Sep 2013 1:12 pm
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 Actually B0b u kinda hit on a distinct factor, physiologically speaking the higher the tone frequency the flatter your hearing mechanism perceives it, hence the tempered tuning thing. As you go up the spectrum ,the sharper the tone has to be "adjusted" to sound "in tune". This also coralates with what Dave said above. |
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Posted 21 Sep 2013 1:31 pm consider this
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I play a marimba tuned to A=442 Hz and nobody notices that it's tuned sharp of the other instruments. Seriously, nobody notices!
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