Steel Guitar Tone!

Chris Forbes · Post by **Chris Forbes** » 19 Jun 2003 9:52 am

Eric, can you explain "Pro III-ized" to me? I have no clue what you're talking about. Thanks!!!

David L. Donald · Post by **David L. Donald** » 19 Jun 2003 10:05 am

I really believe that there are some who would be surprised if they could hear the same pro player play several different brands of guitar without seeing them (a blindfold test)and try to pick which brand was being played.

Well this seems a very interesting idea.
I would like to see this at steel convention.
pick 5-7 good steels set up basically the same copedent, then behind a curtain have a great player play each at random all in the same amp. and let the audience vote on little card which they think he played at any given time.

Colate the votes and see what the general steeling public thought they heard.

Not to pick the best steel... an impossible thing to do,
but just to see how many can identify a particular steel.
IF any body gets all of them right give'm a Best Steel Ears T-shirt

Then have the player play short bits on all of them without the curtain.
It might be quite entertaining and informative.[This message was edited by David L. Donald on 19 June 2003 at 11:06 AM.]

Eric West · Post by **Eric West** » 19 Jun 2003 10:12 am

Well, and somebody smash me if I'm wrong, but the pull mechanisms of the Pro III ( and probably a couple others) were fingers, 3/32 rods and nylon nuts to run the changers as well as being multiple raise, single lowers. All pull.

I talked with Duane Marrs yesterday and he says he puts all new pull mechanisms, multiple raise/lowers and multiple position or hole changers. I imagine the pricetag is pretty hefty, but the finished product is well into the 3-4 grand range, at least what I would consider them comparable to.

Many I've talked to and read on the forum have had good "luck" with the rack and barrel setups, but the Professional Model I have with them with the basket changers don't seem to work for me, as well as only having one raise and one lower. Adding much to it is going to mean redoing the whole undercarriage to get what I want out of it ( five knee levers).

I like them for the string spread, the non isolated pickups, and in general, the "class" of the instrument. Not to mention that of the principals involved in their inception, and building. Especially the Hearts Clubs Diampnds and Spades. I get lost looking at those little atomic dealies, an I never was any good at chess..

EJL [This message was edited by Eric West on 19 June 2003 at 12:33 PM.]

Joe Miraglia · Post by **Joe Miraglia** » 19 Jun 2003 10:59 am

The answer I'm getting is "the VINTAGE tone" NOT "that tone". The brands that you are saying are no longer being manufactured must make them a collectible therefore "vintage". We all like vintage things--I love Lionel trains--too bad I can't afford them! What I want to buy is that tone brand that will be the sound of today and tomorrow. If those vintage sounding guitars are collectibles, as time goes by it will be the sound of the past. Joe

Mike Sweeney · Post by **Mike Sweeney** » 19 Jun 2003 11:37 am

Joe,

The sound of an Emmons Original will never die as long as there are people who will play them and take care of them. I also feel the same about those old Sho~Buds. I'm not going to knock what anybody plays but if you think about what you're saying, in a hundred years all our guitars will be [vintage].

John McGann · Post by **John McGann** » 19 Jun 2003 11:47 am

As someone who does not own a vintage collectable steel, I'd be curious to hear how much maintenence is involved in owning vintage Emmons push/pulls or the 'buds- do you need to be a motorhead/mechanic to keep them purring? Once one is restored, are you good to go with basic maintenence like oiling? Do you need a plumber's license to make copedant changes?

Bobbe Seymour · Post by **Bobbe Seymour** » 19 Jun 2003 12:46 pm

Once they are up , they stay that way untill they are damaged . These aren't auto engins, they pretty well stay where you put them. I continually play a '71 Emmons I've had for over 30 years, very close to no problems ever. You won't believe the work this guitar has done either, or the places it's been. Dependability is one of the main reasons I play it. Sho-Buds are also good IF you keep them up, lube, adjust,keep them dry, clean etc. A used guitar will give as great service as a new one if you just show it some reasonable care and understanding. The people that have problems with guitars, don't understand them, or want too. [This message was edited by BobbeSeymour on 19 June 2003 at 01:48 PM.]

Johnny Cox · Post by **Johnny Cox** » 19 Jun 2003 1:51 pm

Reece, everything you have stated in this thread makes absolute sense to me. Your comments in the original post were the thoughts that I have tried to put into words for years.I have become tired of the "That Sound " theory. To me any good steel player has "That Sound" no matter what he plays. Thanks for the enlightening thoughts.

Johnny Cox

Rick Collins · Post by **Rick Collins** » 19 Jun 2003 3:13 pm

No motorcycle engine sounds like a Harley-Davidson; no pedal steel guitar sounds like an Emmons push-pull. Both, must be properly tuned, of course.

Rick

Eric West · Post by **Eric West** » 19 Jun 2003 5:23 pm

I should add to that the "Basket" works on older Buds IS a good setup, and works well for hundreds or thousands of guitars. I have just found that the later setup is easier for Me. I can see it being easier to add knee levers too as my Professional only has one.

I had a chance to buy a reissue of a 60s Bud with solid fingers where the strings were not "rolled" but they pulled over them. Richard Edge, (one of Bobby Helms' old players) probably is still playing his original one in his gospel gigs. It didn't have chromatic strings on the E9. I could have bought it "new" for 6 bills and passed. It had an "open heel" if I remember right.

EJL

Kevin Hatton · Post by **Kevin Hatton** » 19 Jun 2003 8:07 pm

Emmons push-pull, Sho-Bud, Zb Custom, Franklin, Zum,JCH. All others are just imitations looking for tone. Let 'er go boyyyyyys![This message was edited by Kevin Hatton on 19 June 2003 at 09:09 PM.][This message was edited by Kevin Hatton on 19 June 2003 at 09:49 PM.][This message was edited by Kevin Hatton on 19 June 2003 at 10:14 PM.]

Chris Forbes · Post by **Chris Forbes** » 20 Jun 2003 2:30 am

Thanks Eric, that makes sense when I think about it.

Reece Anderson · Post by **Reece Anderson** » 20 Jun 2003 3:51 am

I appreciate very much the participation and comments concerning the topic of this thread by each of you, many of which I have had the recent pleasure of corresponding with personally.

In the not too distant past Bobbe S. and I have exchanged numerous emails until such time as our differences were made apparent. Since we have mutually agreed that avenue of discussion leads nowhere, and because Bobbe S. made the decision to provide his views concerning the comments I had first made within this thread, I therefore feel it to be appropriate that I respond in the same public forum in which he himself elected to submit his difference of opinion relative to my comments.

Bobbe S. First of all I’m confused by your comments. In an earlier post you made in this same thread you stated “we never agree on anything ever”. Yet in a later post you said “I don’t see where we are really in disagreement anywhere”. You later said, “I don’t see where we are all that far apart”. Such contradictory and conflicting comments make it difficult if not impossible for me to understand the actual truth of what you’re saying or the point you’re trying to make.

My entire response to you clearly listed my disagreements with your comments, yet you did not reference or respond to a single one. In truth, the only thing you responded too was my assessment of the contributions of “Santo and Johnny” in which you agreed.

You never responded to my comments concerning your following statements.

“It’s the folks that don’t have the equipment the quality of yours that have to make excuses”.

“Folks that can’t realize this are destined to be relegated to the ranks of also rans when it comes to tone”.

My entire respectful response to your post clearly explained our differences while offering my point of view to which you have so far selectively chosen to ignore.

As is apparent to most everyone by now, our differences of philosophy are totally clear. After reading your many, many posts over many months concerning tone, it’s apparent you’re committed to your belief that the answer to all things relative to steel guitar both past and present is tone related, and I might add, I certainly respect your right to have that opinion.

To the contrary, I believe inherent and unique capabilities and characteristics unique only to steel guitar and each individual who plays it their way with their sound not only made the steel guitar a success in the past, it is the future to all things relative to steel guitar.

In reality we are miles apart in our philosophy, and considering your total commitment to the contrary of mine and our vast differences, I see no indication we will ever agree because you have certainly made your position very clear for many years. The proof you are totally committed to your beliefs is clearly contained within your statement in which you said “every statement I have made is true and I don’t apologize to anyone for making it”.

Also within my response to you I referenced a statement in which you said “it’s easier for the manufacturer of a guitar that sounds below average to try to convince you with his mouth than it is to do research, make changes and spend money to actually make the guitar sound better”.

Your comment suggests the following questions….”What is average sound and who makes such determinations? Secondly who will be the judge as to when a guitar sounds better even after research?

In addition, the fact you stated that a manufacturer has a guitar below your perceived average of sound, and you also state they should have spent more money on research concerning sound, alludes to what I maintain to be an erroneous conclusion that you have obtained reliable information to verify such a comment.

If you have information which would support your conclusions in that regard one would think you would be happy to provide that information. Your doing so would surely add credibility to your statement, while failure to do so is an admission you have no such evidence, thereby admitting you simply know not of that which you speak.

I enjoy life everyday and no one loves humor more than I, to which my family and friends will attest, but many will agree attempts at humor at inopportune times may at times be used as a screen for deflection of personal responsibility, a method of dilution, or to provide the appearance of false resolution while trying to circumvent an issue.

In my opinion respectful, dignified and courteous discussions should be based on the foundation of common decency which should also be that of a moral forum, and I refuse to participate in anything less than that criteria.

I have been informed by a friend you have invited me to your forum to discuss this matter, which admittedly I have never visited. But judging from past experience on this forum, were I to do so your comment would have already been edited anyway. One has to wonder what you have to say on your forum that cannot be said in a respectful manner on this forum which is the biggest and best steel guitar forum in the world.

I have made it my life’s mission to do everything I possibly could to perpetuate and promote the steel guitar and explore its marvelous ability to fit into the entire spectrum of music. This perhaps explains my desire to continue such matters as contained within this thread to as near conclusion as possible by means of respectful and dignified comments.

In no way are my comments to be construed as anything other than a respectful discussion based on my beliefs while responding to comments directed toward me by others and expounding upon what I consider to be the marvelous advantages and unique characteristics of the steel guitar relative to both it’s past and future. My original comments in this thread were heartfelt and well meaning, and my statements in response to opposing views is not intended to be taken as condescending nor argumentative but for discussion purposes only, which is the cornerstone of this forum. I therefore trust my comments are received in the same positive spirit offered.

Pat Burns · Post by **Pat Burns** » 20 Jun 2003 4:59 am

..respectfully...is this still about "Steel Guitar Tone"?..

Fred Shannon · Post by **Fred Shannon** » 20 Jun 2003 6:16 am

Yeah Pat, it's still about tone....but tone is like looking for a needle in the proverbial haystack, sometimes before you find the needle, you have to move some of the chaff out of the way....I think that's just been accomplished.

Fred

------------------
The spirit be with you!
If it aint got a steel, it aint real

Joe Miraglia · Post by **Joe Miraglia** » 20 Jun 2003 8:27 am

So I won't be confused over this tone issue, wouldn't it be a good idea for all the steel manufacturers and technicians to construct and sell one brand that has the tone. You can all work together under the same roof and have lots of fun doing it! Until then, I'll stick with my Carter...Joe

Bobbe Seymour · Post by **Bobbe Seymour** » 20 Jun 2003 8:47 am

Maurice, you just passed me. You have used up more of bOb's hard drive than I ever have. You are at 68%... Now, where is the humor part you were refering to? HA!

Eric West · Post by **Eric West** » 20 Jun 2003 9:47 am

...BONG!...and there's the bell for the end of round four...

Pat Burns · Post by **Pat Burns** » 20 Jun 2003 10:11 am

...it's a tough one to call at this point..Reese dances well, and threw a flurry of punches that wow-ed the crowd, but he didn't seem to make any solid connections...Bobbe just wades right in before the bell and lands a jab, but does he have the stamina to outlast Reese?...

...by the way Eric, the tone on that BONG!..it really resonates...what is that, anyway?..[This message was edited by Pat Burns on 20 June 2003 at 11:14 AM.]

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 20 Jun 2003 10:30 am

To the contrary, I believe inherent and unique capabilities and characteristics unique only to steel guitar and each individual who plays it their way with their sound not only made the steel guitar a success in the past, it is the future to all things relative to steel guitar.

You said a mouthful there, Reece! I had to read that sentence 4 times before I understood its structure!

I agree with you 100%, I think.

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<img align=right src="http://b0b.com/b0b.gif" width="64" height="64">Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs, Open Hearts
Sierra Session 12 (E9), Williams 400X (Emaj9, D6), Sierra Olympic 12 (C6add9),
Sierra Laptop 8 (D13), Fender Stringmaster (E13, A6),
Roland Handsonic, Line 6 Variax[This message was edited by Bobby Lee on 20 June 2003 at 11:31 AM.]

Rick Collins · Post by **Rick Collins** » 20 Jun 2003 10:38 am

...by the way Eric, the tone on that BONG!..it really resonates...what is that, anyway?..

Could it be "that sound"?

Terry Edwards · Post by **Terry Edwards** » 20 Jun 2003 11:04 am

To the contrary, I believe inherent and unique capabilities and characteristics unique only to steel guitar and each individual who plays it their way with their sound not only made the steel guitar a success in the past, it is the future to all things relative to steel guitar.

Reece, are you really Bill Hankey?

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Terry Edwards
Fessy D-10; Nash 1000
Martin D-21; Flatiron F-5

Eric West · Post by **Eric West** » 20 Jun 2003 11:09 am

Actually the Manufacturer is relatively unknown at this time. They were re-issuing this puppy well after the "boxing craze" of the early 1850s, when the Civil War broke out, and basically all hell broke loose. A lot of them got turned upside down down and used as "nitre distilleries" by the WOTC in Abbeville SC. The ladies often complained that they were terribly "cold".

They say that "The Tone" was more in the hands of the hammer operator.

The Bell Tolls for Thee

Wait a minute.. There's a commotion in one of the corners... could it be?...

.....

...
[This message was edited by Eric West on 20 June 2003 at 12:11 PM.]

Bobbe Seymour · Post by **Bobbe Seymour** » 20 Jun 2003 11:18 am

Is this a great forum or what! I'm hiring a translator that should be in Monday that has promised to let me know what Maurice is talking about. (Or Bill Hanky, whomever it is).
bOb, this is the best forum in the world! It has to be true if Reeceie-poo says so. What great entertainment, no fact here, but great entertainment. With fun like this I can sell my TV!

Pat Burns · Post by **Pat Burns** » 20 Jun 2003 11:23 am

...give 'em a few minutes, Eric, they're not as young as they used to be...

...now I think that bell gets it's tone from the contact of the feet on the stand with the table...

..EDIT- Jeez, was I wrong...Bobbe flew out of his corner like his shorts were on fire...

..BONG! Round Five...[This message was edited by Pat Burns on 20 June 2003 at 12:25 PM.]