D 12: Why didn't they catch on?

Darryl Hattenhauer · Post by **Darryl Hattenhauer** » 17 Jul 2013 1:31 pm

Do used ones cost more (because of rarity)? Or do they cost less (due to lack of demand)?

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 17 Jul 2013 1:52 pm

Normally, they sell low because the demand is also low, especially D12's. With what I see at jams and steel shows in the area, I don't really see them as being any more popular than they were 25 years ago.

Lane Gray · Post by **Lane Gray** » 17 Jul 2013 2:27 pm

if you want one, Jim Palenscar down at North County steel guitars has a Emmons push pull d 12.
They tend to cost less because not as many people want to lug around a boat anchor.
and Mickey Adams has a Mullen.

John McClung · Post by **John McClung** » 17 Jul 2013 4:02 pm

I'm a longtime D-12 player, here's my take on it:

Like Rick Schmidt (we both have 12/11 setups), the low end of the E9 is to die for. And I do a lot of rhythm playing in my style, so my comping has the same voicings as a 6-string guitar.

And the occasion really big fat E9 chord sounds fab.

The negatives:

weight, though my Mullen in case is ONLY 76 lbs!

excessive bar noise from the low strings, even with gauged rollers (my set isn't perfect, but better than non-gauged by a mile). For sessions I often temporarily loosen and take away strings 11 and 12 for quieter tracks and less fiddly blocking worries.

I don't play much C6, so I see a nice Mullen or ZumSteel SD-12 in my future. In the meantime, I have split cases coming to lighten the load.

They also don't hold their value well, as many point out, just not much demand for this format, now or ever.

I've tried to adapt to a universal tuning several times, but for me, that tuning is the worst of both worlds, I lose too many unique things on both necks, since I'm a knee lever junkie.

My pre-RP Mullen has much less than average cabinet drop, and killer tone and easy action throughout. Do wish it had triple lowers on the changer, and split screws.

Here's my current E9 copedent. C6 is pretty standard, with G as string 3, and D on top of that, string 1 slot unused (used to have an F there, for a C-D-E-F-G scale segment on top 5 strings.

Lane Gray · Post by **Lane Gray** » 17 Jul 2013 4:08 pm

John, why not put a D on 1, C6? Handy string to have

admin · Post by **b0b** » 17 Jul 2013 4:14 pm

I did enjoy the low end of the 12 string E9th, which is why my 8 string goes down to E. Here's how my D-12 Williams was set up:

John McClung · Post by **John McClung** » 17 Jul 2013 4:22 pm

Lane, you caught an error, it is D on string 2, then G and then the full C6, I'll fix that. I removed the F I had on top per Rick's command.

chris ivey · Post by **chris ivey** » 17 Jul 2013 4:52 pm

they're just too big and intimidating. if you can play so much stuff on the d10 that you still need to add strings, you should go give buddy emmons some lessons.

buddy cage played an sd10 last couple time he came through here..a red legrande, i think.

Jack Hanson · Post by **Jack Hanson** » 17 Jul 2013 5:03 pm

John says his D-12 Mullen in the case weighs 76 pounds, which is significantly lighter than my '73 D-10 Push-Pull. Can't even imagine what it must be like to schlep an old D-12 Push-Pull or MSA around.

Robbie Daniels · Post by **Robbie Daniels** » 17 Jul 2013 5:25 pm

I have been playing D12's since 1966 and never really had an issue with weight. I was just happy with the tunings that I wanted and went from there. I still play a Carter D12 built for me in Dec. 2005, does not detune etc. weight is no problem and I am 80 years old. I think most of it is in the mind such as personal opinions.

Eric Philippsen · Post by **Eric Philippsen** » 17 Jul 2013 5:43 pm

I have a D12 push-pull that I'm embarrassed to say I've never really played. Bought it because it was pretty inexpensive. Now I'm not too sure that was a wise thing to do. Heck, every time I open its case the first thing that comes to my mind is, "Dang, that's a lot of strings.". Add to that that I have my hands plenty full trying to play a D10.

Rick Schmidt · Post by **Rick Schmidt** » 17 Jul 2013 5:48 pm

I never really intended to get a D12. I was just looking for a second steel and this one fell in my lap for a good price. All I can say is the extra low notes on E9 are really fun, and have opened up some new ideas I wouldn't have thought of before. Before that, I played a D10 Shobud Professional with 8 & 2 for 30 plus years. I didn't even lower the top E all that time... So now for me.....

more is more.

Darryl Hattenhauer · Post by **Darryl Hattenhauer** » 17 Jul 2013 8:16 pm

Does anybody know anything about any Sho-Bud D-12? There is one for sale in Washington state, but according to posts elsewhere on SGF the price is two or three times the going rate.

Earnest Bovine · Post by **Earnest Bovine** » 17 Jul 2013 10:06 pm

Darryl Hattenhauer wrote:Does anybody know anything about any Sho-Bud D-12? There is one for sale in Washington state, but according to posts elsewhere on SGF the price is two or three times the going rate.

Mine was cheap, but it was a long time ago. I think the seller was glad to get rid of it (95 pounds in the new case.)
My tuning is on here on b0b's pages somewhere ... it may have changed a little.

Note hillbilly helper spring on high G# string raise.

Darryl Hattenhauer · Post by **Darryl Hattenhauer** » 17 Jul 2013 10:22 pm

Looks magnificent. How do you like it? Any problems?

admin · Post by **b0b** » 17 Jul 2013 10:24 pm

It's an old Sho-Bud. How could it not have problems?

Darryl Hattenhauer · Post by **Darryl Hattenhauer** » 17 Jul 2013 11:28 pm

Yes, and the first problem is that you need a crane to lift it.

David Cubbedge · Post by **David Cubbedge** » 18 Jul 2013 8:25 am

It was several years ago, but I thought Joe Wright played a Sierra 14-string.....exceptionally well I might add!

Richard Sinkler · Post by **Richard Sinkler** » 18 Jul 2013 9:09 am

Always was kind of interested in a 14 string, but I don't know why. While I like the idea of the 2 lower strings on E9, I would rather have the 2 extra strings on top of the C6 as I explained above. That way I could get some of the FAST scale runs on the top strings the same way as the E9. I really hate having to move my bar down one fret on the 3rd string, or using the lever to lower it to "B" (which doesn't work well on fast runs), or use a pedal to raise 4 to "B" (again, hard to execute quickly).

Jim Smith · Post by **Jim Smith** » 20 Jul 2013 8:28 am

I've played D-12's since the early 70's. I've tried a U-12 and even a U-13, trying to cut down on the weight. I kept running into compromises for pedal/knee combinations I was used to, so I finally decided it wasn't worth it for me.

I have a heck of a time trying to sit in on a 10 string guitar, as I keep hitting the wrong strings. The only person I can remember sitting in on my D-12 was Johnny Cox, but he can play anything.

In the "old" days I used to schlep a D-12 Formica MSA with 10&10 in one hand and a Session 500 in the other hand for balance.

Nowadays my Rock-N-Roller cart does all the work. Guitar on bottom, one or two four space racks and two Stereo Steel speakers on top of the guitar, and seat on top of that.

In and out in one trip and I assemble the guitar on the cart so I don't even have to bend over to the floor.

Darryl Hattenhauer · Post by **Darryl Hattenhauer** » 20 Jul 2013 9:40 am

Jim,

You kept moving those around to various gigs? You must be a body builder.

dh

Rich Peterson · Post by **Rich Peterson** » 20 Jul 2013 9:47 am

On a D-12, the front neck is even further away. Does that cause problems with either hand?

Jim Smith · Post by **Jim Smith** » 20 Jul 2013 10:04 am

Darryl Hattenhauer wrote:Jim,

You kept moving those around to various gigs? You must be a body builder.

dh

Ha, well I WAS pretty studly back then, but I've softened up considerably in my old age.

Jim Smith · Post by **Jim Smith** » 20 Jul 2013 10:06 am

Rich Peterson wrote:On a D-12, the front neck is even further away. Does that cause problems with either hand?

As I recall, a typical D-10 body is about 10 3/4" wide and a D-12 is about 12" wide. Not much difference at all.

Gene Jones · Post by **Gene Jones** » 21 Jul 2013 9:59 am

No wonder that players are going back to a dobro or a lap steel!