tuning to an exact frequency

Chris Erbacher · Post by **Chris Erbacher** » 7 May 2003 2:22 pm

hi, this may be a weird question, but here goes; does anyone out there know of a device that will tell me the exact frequency of a certain string, as opposed to the current method of always having the pitch referenced to whatever the A pitch is? i hope that made sense. in other words i am interested in being able to find out what the exact pitch of lets say the g# is, but the tuner i have, the boss pedal type, only lets me reference it to the whatever the a is, ie tempered tuning. thanks in advance

George Wixon · Post by **George Wixon** » 7 May 2003 3:52 pm

Chris,
I think I know what you want. I use the tuner that comes with Band in a box and there is a box in the tuner window labeled hertz that will tell you the frequency of the string in hertz. For instance if I hit my A on the 3rd string it will read 440 if I tune it that way. Now if I release the pedal and hit the 3rd string which produces a G# the reading will be some where around 414 depending of course where you tune. The lower the note the lower the lower the frequency and the higher the note, the higher the frequency. Is this what you are looking for?
George

C Dixon · Post by **C Dixon** » 7 May 2003 4:02 pm

I know of no tuner that would give you the exact frequency. As far as I know they all reference to straight concert pitch A=440HZ or some shift from this.

There are spectrum analyzers and frequency counters out there that will give it precisely, but I am not aware of a currently available tuner that will.

I went on Peterson's website. Also, Precision Strobe tuner's website. And they did not mention it. Or if they did I did not see it. These are among the finest on the market I am told. And as far as I can see, both still only reference to A=440.

Are you just interested for curiosity sake, or do you want to tune your guitar using frequency rather than a reference method?

carl

Chris Erbacher · Post by **Chris Erbacher** » 7 May 2003 7:34 pm

i would like to know the exact frequencies of the strings. i am looking into doing some things with the steel that aren't necessarily related to playing tunes, and in order to do so, i need to know the exact frequencies, but i can't seem to find a portable unit that will allow me to do so. i wonder why there isn't a tuner that has this function in it? one of the things i am interested in is sound as it relates to the planets and colors. every color is also a sound at a different part of the spectrum, (i think sound becomes color at the 57th octave), and every planet has a particular pitch associated with it. i know this may seem way out there to most people, but kepler did some interesting research a long time ago on this subject and i am interested in exploring further, and since the pedal steel is the sweetest sound i know of, i think it is perfect. the northern indians (people from north india) tune their instruments to whatever the pitch is for earth, and tune to C rather than A. maybe i will call a piano tuner and see what they use... thanks for the replies, keep em coming!

Kurt Graber · Post by **Kurt Graber** » 7 May 2003 8:03 pm

All right Chris,
Obviously this topic can get way out of hand and the "Wise"men will be here any second, but you lost me. I took astronomy in college and studied keppler. Nevertheless, explain how the planet earth is basically relative to a 'C' note? How did this principle come into play? I have an audio error meter that would probably do what you want, but I would like to know a little more on where your going with all this and how it relates to the steel or any instrument for that matter.

Ron Randall · Post by **Ron Randall** » 7 May 2003 9:19 pm

I have somewhere a link to a table of frequencies for every note on the piano.

I also have the mathematics to determine pitch and frequency. Let me do some digging.

Is this what you are lookin' for?

Eric West · Post by **Eric West** » 7 May 2003 10:21 pm

Leave it to the Chinese....

Stuff that could make your head Explode

My dad tuned pianos, and I used to watch him for hours. Never learned a thing.

Roy Ayres · Post by **Roy Ayres** » 7 May 2003 10:53 pm

Chris:

Check out this site -- it lists the frequency of each note in the Equal Tempered Scale.

Frequency Chart[This message was edited by Roy Ayres on 07 May 2003 at 11:54 PM.][This message was edited by Roy Ayres on 08 May 2003 at 12:00 AM.]

Chris Erbacher · Post by **Chris Erbacher** » 7 May 2003 11:51 pm

hey guys, yeah i was hoping to just get an answer to my dilema, and not have to explain exactly why i wanted exact frequencies, but, it looks like pandora's box has been opened. rather than explaining it here, if you are curious, go to www.planetware.de/tone/cosmic.html for a better explanation than i can give here. it is a link to a website which tells about the cosmic octave, a book by hans cousto. in this book, hans shows how each planet and color has an associated musical tone related to it by harmonics, hence a musical universe. there are other things on this website, most of which are music therapy related things, but there are some good buttons on the page which give some explaination as to the origin of the information. it is all arrived to by mathematics, and is scientifically sound (no pun intended), so it is not like someone just arbitrarily gave each planet a tone, these tones are out of our range of hearing, but nevertheless still exist. it is interesting stuff, so if you are curious, take a look. i wanted to put these frequencies into the extra neck on my zb and see how they sound together. i'll admit it is a little weird, but hey, people do say that the steel is the sound angels make, so i think it fits. i also wanted the exact frequencies to be able to make my own tuning for my steel, and not be limited by the tempered-ness of the standard tuner. i like exactness in general. maybe the v-sam will help with my own tuning. does anyone know how much they cost (the website doesn't say) and are they only doing a limited run to start with? i appreciate all the help too. basically i am looking for a device that can tell me just the frequency of the string i pick, not as being tempered to any particular other string. i looked at spectrum analyzers and they are way out of my range, so if anyone else knows how i can get exact frequencies, please let me know. oh, and i was wrong before in saying that the northern indians tune to C instead of A, it is C# 136.10 hz, which is related to the ET system by A=432.1. i won't go on any more. thanks for the help

Rick Aiello · Post by **Rick Aiello** » 8 May 2003 4:54 am

At first I was going to suggest gettin' his "Tuning Forks" ... then I saw the price

I'm beginning to see the "cosmic light"

A tone generator will do what you want ... just set the frequency and tune beatless. For frequencies that low ... using octaves and 5th/12th fret harmonics might be helpful.

Here is a free one ... Tone Generator

Now I finally know the pitch of Uranus

[This message was edited by Rick Aiello on 08 May 2003 at 06:31 AM.]

Jim Palenscar · Post by **Jim Palenscar** » 8 May 2003 5:28 am

Great thread- thanks!

Bruce Derr · Post by **Bruce Derr** » 8 May 2003 5:34 am

Or you could price up a used frequency counter, as Carl suggested. A spectrum analyzer would be overkill for what you want. A frequency counter is generally cheaper and would give you a direct numeric readout of the frequency without all the added unnecessary features of a spectrum analyzer.

Rick Aiello · Post by **Rick Aiello** » 8 May 2003 5:44 am

Update ... I downloaded the Tone Generator and saved a frequency to .wav (available function in the program) ...

I then ran it thru my Spectrum Analyzer ... worked like a charm.

------------------

www.horseshoemagnets.com

RON PRESTON · Post by **RON PRESTON** » 8 May 2003 5:48 am

Chris,
I know exacly what you are talking about. People look at me REAL strange when I bring up the "Vibes & color" thing.

I have read LOTS about this for years.......and Yes, I have a tuner that has no needle,, but, tells me the Hrz. in number form. In other words, when I am a -5 "Cents", the tuner will say...445.5 and so on. If you want to discuss the "Color" thing a little more, feel free to E-mail me. I would love to discuss this in depth. VERY interesting stuff, indeed.

Chris Erbacher · Post by **Chris Erbacher** » 8 May 2003 11:50 am

thanks for all the replies. a tone generator would be great, but i don't own a computer, the one i am using now is at work. i wonder if the new v-sam will have a tone generator that i can plug in exact frequencies and get the desired tones? i'm sending you an email ron.

Paul Osbty · Post by **Paul Osbty** » 8 May 2003 2:06 pm

Many multimeters for measuring AC/DC voltage have a frequency measurement. A very high input impedance will allow a guitar to be read well. They are portable, too. Try Fluke meters or any other off-brand. The ones that will work the best are True RMS types. These are a bit more expensive, but maybe you could just borrow one. A Fluke 8060A or 87 is probably cheap on E-bay.

Ron Randall · Post by **Ron Randall** » 8 May 2003 4:55 pm

Chris

Eric has the same link as I do.
http://www.izzy.net/~jc/PSTInfo/Temper.html

While you are there you will other useful links. I found it useful.

Ron

Chris Erbacher · Post by **Chris Erbacher** » 8 May 2003 5:59 pm

cool link, the article is interesting too. after reading the article, it was clear that i needed to talk to a piano guy/gal, so that is what i did. i went down to the piano tuner/dealer to ask a few questions. i never did really get a good answer other than there is something called a frequency counter that i have to find, which is what the tuners use to tune the reference note on the piano. most of my time was spent trying to explain why i wanted this thing to begin with, and it was kind of funny to be standing in a place where they are into music and tuning and to see them sort of make fun of me for doing something different than they normally do, as if they are the experts, so i got a kick out of watching them poke fun at very legitimate reasons for my inquiry. i am sort of used to it by now, after all, i do play pedal steel, which to most is a kind of weird instrument to be playing, so go figure. so that is where i am now, and i guess i will try to find a good fluke meter around, at the very least i can always use it for other things too huh. tomorrow i will go to the ali akbar khan school of music to see how they tune their instruments, maybe they have the device i am looking for. thanks guys for the replies, and the link.

Eric West · Post by **Eric West** » 8 May 2003 6:50 pm

I know what you mean about being in a music store like that and talking to "experts".

Y'oughta try getting the "real scoop" about cam/compression/carburetion formulae in a Harley Shop.

I certainly don't wish you to think I was poking any fun with my post.

I actually have quite a collection of old Ravi Shankar stuff I drug out recently.

I can't say I'm on the beam with the exacitude of it all but I do know that the 64 note scale is a hard thing to get used to. I hadn't thought about it for a long time.

I listened to several selections, and I have to admit that they sound "out of tune". Not just a few notes, but often the whole damn song or just one whole riff. Now Ravi, being a Master, many times over, and in a category of Segovia, probably has NEVER put down a lick, note, or riff, that I have ever heard that was not played with exacitude few of us OR our dogs have ever heard. Yet, to me, a battle worn "who's really out of tune" guy, it sounded out of tune.

Though this isn't the week for me to do it, I'd like to read the whys, and wheres of the subtleties of East Indian Music, and why, to OUR ears it does sound out of tune.

"We" can understand minors, diminished, augmented, and others as "the public" and then as we become "schooled" 9-5s 9ths, sus4 etc.
Why not a "half minor". God knows blues players play enough of them. On purpose? I'd bet on it at a certain point. How about half suspended" maybe 1/4 augmented. I've got to have played some of those a thousand times when I touched the pedal slightly wrong. In an augmented, nobody would notice would they? Nobody usually does where I play..

Then there's vibrato, sometimes only slight and slow. and VERY deliberate. We're talking 20 cents in some cases.

As close as I come to it is putting four descending triplets over three frets like in The Fireman, or do a diminished slant over three unequdistant strings. I've been kown to do that with brumley style licks up or down, and I'd like to hear a recording of it, because nobody EVER notices. They're just listening to the "movement".

Last couple evenings I ran Franklin's licks down to damn near zero tempo on Hot Wired, and was really surprised to find a few licks bending things "to the limit", and most sounding pretty exact. As I listened to it at various speeds, I got more of a feeling that the dissonances though small probably were intentional, as they were sure as hell "leading", and not "detracting".

Maybe "we" use a scale that is actually a lot more complex than "twelve half steps".

Maybe not.

Oh Mr Hankey....Get your duct tape ready.. and a few thousand more vertical slots..

(forgive me if I find the time..)

EJL

Let us know what you find.[This message was edited by Eric West on 08 May 2003 at 07:57 PM.]

Chris Erbacher · Post by **Chris Erbacher** » 9 May 2003 1:05 pm

hey eric, i would say that the reson that ravi sounds out of tune to western ears is due to routine exposure to the western scale. if western ears were routinely exposed to eastern music, it would just sound different. it wasn't until this century that the A=440hz was adopted to be the world concert standard, and if you look at the mathematics behind the note, it is sort of arbitrary, with no real significance to nature, the human body, the universe...now i admit this is getting way out there for most people, but this stuff was common knowledge in the days that the masters were composing the great classical works, so why isn't it now? at one time, in the churches of europe, there were architects building churches that would resonate with specific hymms being sung during services, adding to the power of the music and the service. music was such a powerful thing in that day, that the first thing a king or lord would do when taking power, was to change the standard for the A pitch. my thing is, if this stuff is true, then why did it occur, and how can i go and tune to what was common back when the masters were around, to see for myself if there is a difference to be had. i'm not trying to pick an arguement here, i'm just curious and want to explore my curiosity. i will let you know what i uncover, if anything.

chas smith R.I.P. · Post by **chas smith R.I.P.** » 9 May 2003 2:15 pm

tune their instruments to whatever the pitch is for earth,

Eb

Paul Osbty had it, the Fluke 8060A is one of the meters you probably want.

Mark Durante · Post by **Mark Durante** » 12 May 2003 3:09 pm

Chris, Sorry I didn't see your post until now.
I have two tuners of just the type you are looking for, sorry not for sale, they are called Acoustyx and were sold in the mid-late 1970s. They were advertized in Guitar Player quite a bit. They just have an input jack and a digital readout of the specific frequency in Hertz, 213.4 for example. Has nothing to do with what note or string, no knobs or calibration needed. You might find a used one somewhere, on Ebay maybe. Everyone that watches me use mine are mystified by it but it seems so logical to me I don't know why everyone doesn't use them.
George, I am unfamiliar with Band in a Box, is it the same kind of tuner?

George Wixon · Post by **George Wixon** » 12 May 2003 4:13 pm

Mark,
Band in a Box is a software program that is basically used for creating and composing music. I use it for rhythm tracks to play along with. The tuner that is in the program reads out in both cents and hertz. After looking a little more closely at the tuner part of the program, while it will tell you the exact frequency of the string, it is also using A=440 as a reference. The box that shows the hertz reading will go to hundreths so you may see 440.1 as an example if you are above 440 by .1 hertz. The cent scale and hertz scale are always enabled with a big visual bar meter as well.
George

Willis Vanderberg · Post by **Willis Vanderberg** » 12 May 2003 6:23 pm

I would like to see a building designed to enhance my guitar picking,That would be a architect's nightmare and an engineering disaster.And if that wasn't enought the VFW wouldn't buy it so I couldn't pick there anyway.(LOL)
Bud

Chris Erbacher · Post by **Chris Erbacher** » 12 May 2003 9:38 pm

hey guys thanks for the info. i have done some more research into this subject and talked to one of the guys at peterson strobe tuners today at length about the new v-sam and it's capabilities. seems they have it figured out and are really sympathetic to the plight of steel guitarists everywhere when it comes to tuning. i'm sure you all have seen the posts here on the forum, so i won't go into details, but they basically have a function on the tuner that allows for a basic reference note in any of the octave ranges(i hope my explanation is clear and accurate here), followed by another function that allows for movement up and down in cents, which according to this man john, is really the way to go. (really nice guy, didn't give me the runaround i'm used to by now with all my weird and technical questions, but rather explained it in very specific and easy to understand words). he explained it to me as this, when a string moves, there is no exact frequency that the string exhibits consistently for the duration it is being measured by a device that will measure hertz. if one does this, a multitude of ever changing numbers will be the result. according to him, when we think of a string being at a specific frequency, it is really a certain frequency given for a specific window of the strings movement. what he reccomends, is using the cents system because he says it is accurate to the fourth decimal point in hertz. great phone call and learned something very interesting today, so it looks like the vsam is a very valuble tool indeed. he also said that anyone can convert hertz to cents using the conversion chart on their website. i hope i did his explanation justice and if ididn't, then you'll just have to call him and tell him you play the steel

he said in his opinion the steel is the sweetest sounding instrument out there, i got a big grin

when he said that. anyway, seems like i'll have to look into that vsam, and a hilton pedal. i'll keep you guys posted as to the planetary tunings. i took a class last year on the sacredness of sound, and it turns out the great pyramid is full of things related to sound, and the great cathedrals of europe. also in the last few days i learned that there was also a classical composer (i'm not sure his name at the moment, i think he was german) who had a specific building constructed for a certain piece he had written, and this piece has since become the first piece that gets played in any new orchestral concert house, and it gets played without an audience, so this type of stuff is not new. maybe if we can figure out how the shape of the place, as well as the building materials effect sound, then we could take up a collection and get our own pedal steel concert house built. i know it is a crazy idea willis, but hey crazier things have happened. i know a guy who is studying this stuff right now and i'll get in touch with him to see if he has any ideas about this. can't hurt to ask right? anyway hope everyone out there is doing well and i'll talk to yoo soon...