S-10 or D-10 for beginner?

Tony LaCroix · Post by **Tony LaCroix** » 24 Apr 2003 4:09 pm

OK, I've come to terms with the fact that I can't make this decision on my own, so here it is. I've yet to buy a guitar because of this question. I intend to learn the E9 stuff until I can get through a country gig without turning red, but my real interest is in rock n roll, blues, and the Robert Randolph sorta stuff. Does anybody on this forum recommend that I get a D-10? Or will the C6 neck probably just sit there unused, the occasional passerby asking, "How come you don't use THAT half?" I don't like the idea of "trading up" after a couple years. I buy stuff and keep it.

Jon Light · Post by **Jon Light** » 24 Apr 2003 4:21 pm

From the interests that you describe, of the two, I'd say D-10. The C6 is there for your exploration or for an alternative tuning. But the 'bad news' is that the third (and maybe best) option exists--S-12. Either a Universal tuning or, possibly best for your needs, an Extended E9--either conventional Ext. setup or altered toward a Sacred Steeler setup (as per the b0b variant). Gives you the E9 but loads of rock & boogie potential.

Jeff A. Smith · Post by **Jeff A. Smith** » 24 Apr 2003 4:25 pm

Hi Tony-

Have you studied the sacred steel tunings? I haven't looked into them too deeply, although they've been talked about here. b0b has a basic one listed somewhere. If that were my real interest, I might check into a single neck 12 string. The extra bass strings come in handy for rock and blues, and I think Randolph actually uses a 14 string. With an S-12 you would have all your typical E9 stuff, but also enough pedals for a sacred steel type tuning if you wanted to change over. The sacred steel tuning, being based on E7, is also very suggestive of blues and rock, at least the way it's usually played. Someone else may defend the honor of the C6 tuning here, but it doesn't sound like you have any interest in what it can do. Why get two necks when you only really want one, and could get a single neck with more bottom end capability? Maybe I'm missing something.

Jeff

Tony LaCroix · Post by **Tony LaCroix** » 25 Apr 2003 6:04 am

Thanks a bunch for the replies John and Jeff! Wow, two suggestions for a 12-string... Is the difference between a U-12 and an S-12 just the tuning, or are the instruments actually different? I'm a little intimidated by the idea of beginning on a 12 string, when I'm sure a 10 string would keep me plenty busy. With the extended E9 tuning, are the "middle" 10 strings usually tuned like a traditional "Nashville" E9, with the top and bottom string making the "extention"? Or are the two string just added to the top or bottom? Which leads me to one more question... Will all the E9 instrucional material be usable if I buy an S-12?

Sorry for all the questions. I really hadn't considered this possibility until you gentlemen brought it up.

Thanks

Tony

Kurt Graber · Post by **Kurt Graber** » 25 Apr 2003 6:24 am

If money is not a big issue and you really love the sounds of the C6th, buy the D10. You will eventually want to play it. I play 90% E9th on the job, but at home for my own enjoyment(practice), I play C6th.

Bob Hoffnar · Post by **Bob Hoffnar** » 25 Apr 2003 6:33 am

Tony,
A D10 would offer you the flexability you will need to learn the E9 neck while working on the right set up to cover the Sacred Steel style.

If you are into Robert's style you might want to look into diving straight into his set up. Also check out what Dan Tyack is up to. He seems to be covering all of what you are talking about with his D10 set up.

Remember you are on the internet right now. There is a difference between the information you get from us computer guys and what you will get in person. Go out and talk with some players at the clubs. 90% of them will be playing a D10. It is not because they fear change. There are very good reasons for it.

Bob[This message was edited by Bob Hoffnar on 25 April 2003 at 07:45 AM.]

Larry Bell · Post by **Larry Bell** » 25 Apr 2003 6:38 am

I primarily play sixth tuning stuff for my own enjoyment -- plus a lot of swing and rockabilly stuff in a couple of bands -- and I do it on a single-12. The music itself is much more important than how you get it. I can play exactly the same notes as C6 (and some combinations C6 doesn't offer). There's more'n one way to skin a cat.

The main distinction between a U-12 and S-12 with Extended E9 is whether the open tuning includes the D string on 9 (Ext E9), with the lowest note as 'guitar' low E or the full B6 tuning on the bottom (E9/B6Universal), with the lowest note as B, 1/2 step lower than the lowest note on C6.

As far as playing rock is concerned, I've always maintained that the pedal steel is the greatest slide guitar / blues / rock instrument ever invented. You don't need a special tuning to do it. There's a wealth of minor pentatonic and blues scale positions on both 10-string tunings and on the various 12-string setups. All the notes are there -- finding them and stringing them together in musical ways is the challenge.

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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps
[This message was edited by Larry Bell on 25 April 2003 at 07:53 AM.]

Dennis Wood · Post by **Dennis Wood** » 25 Apr 2003 8:02 am

I started on a U-12, knowing nothing about a pedal steel. I will admit it's rather intimidating at first but it all comes together pretty quick. With a modern U12 you have the best of both worlds with E9/B6.

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Sierra U-12 Crown Gearless, Peavey Nashville 400,
Peavey Tubefex,
Peavey Stereo 212,
Peavey TT Bandit w/ex speaker. Regal Reso, Tele, Strat, 1970 Les Paul Std.

CrowBear Schmitt · Post by **CrowBear Schmitt** » 25 Apr 2003 9:33 am

first of all Welcome to this great Forum Tony
i prefer a D10 cause of the 2 necks and i enjoy playin' both of 'em (i prefer C6)
like a bro said here on a similar thread, if you break a string, you can hop over to the other neck and keep on goin.
i don't break strings very often, but it sure messes me up
i have never tried a 12 string model so i can't say anything about'em
best thing to do is to give'em all a try

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Steel what?

Kurt Graber · Post by **Kurt Graber** » 25 Apr 2003 9:40 am

Tony, the bottom line is you have to make the decision. Then you need to decide your guitar setup that is right for you. I spent almost 15 years on that decision and Bobbe Seymour says I have the worst setup in the world. I say I have the best for me!!!Nevertheless, steel is an instrument that is full of decisions and you have to make the rules. All of us are here for advice so analyze it carefully and you make the right decisions for you...

David Doggett · Post by **David Doggett** » 25 Apr 2003 10:17 am

I started on a single-neck E9. I have played country, blues and rock on it. I was never very interested in playing swing or jazz, so I never got a double-neck. Recently I got both an extended E9 and a universal at the same time. I could never get used to the complicated grips on the bottom of the ext. E9 caused by the 9th D string. The grips are much simpler on the universal, and when I need the D I get it from a knee lever, plus I have all the B6 stuff. A 12 string plays blues much better than a 10 string, because you don't run out of strings on the bottom (I played slide guitar blues and really missed those low E chord (or A chord) strings.

Now I'm slowly learning some B6 stuff, and like the fact that I can move in and out of E9 and B6 stuff without changing necks, and I wouldn't want a locking lever either. If you get a universal first you can play around with the B6 stuff to find out if you would want to really do a lot of that. Then you might want to get a double-neck with C6.

I don't find B6 or C6 as good for blues as an E neck of any kind - not enough in-chord strings at the top or bottom and it slows me down trying to skip over the 6 note and out-of-chord strings (same with ext. E9 and the D string). The Sacred Steelers don't have any out-of chord strings to slow them down, but then they can't get the standard E9 country stuff. I'm to the point that if I wanted to get a double-neck I would want a universal on one neck and a Sacred Steel blues tuning on the other, or just an 8-string E7 no-pedal neck.

The double-neck "pros" people always refer to mostly play country or Western swing or non-commercial jazz. With a double neck they typically have 20 strings, 8 pedals and 8 or more knee levers. From that standpoint that is more strings, and typically more pedals and levers than universals have (although you can load up a universal with that many pedals and levers). These pros can of course play anything on anything. But the fact is they don't play a lot of rock and blues. The real pro blues players (the Sacred Steelers) had to invent a new neck to play blues at the speed they wanted, and of course they may not have cared about not being able to play country and Western swing. Also a lot of rock steelers find the need to experiment with tunings beyond standard E9 and C6.

My advice would be to start with a very cheap E9 and move to a universal as soon as possible (or start with a universal if you can afford it). The universal has all the E9 and C6 stuff and you can decide from there if you want to split them up and get a double neck later. Believe me, learning on a 12 string universal with one set of fret associations is much easier than learning both necks of a double-neck with 20 strings and two completely unrelated fret associations.

And universals are lighter and cheaper and have fewer strings to change and keep in tune. This is important stuff for amateurs and semi-pros with limited time and money. Pros put up with double-necks because it's their whole life. Gigging and practicing around town I don't even pack and unpack my universal in the case. I just throw it on my shoulder and put it in the back of my van. When I get where I'm going I carry it in, set it down and start tuning up. Try that with a double-neck. I love my Fessy universal.

[This message was edited by David Doggett on 25 April 2003 at 11:27 AM.][This message was edited by David Doggett on 26 April 2003 at 01:36 PM.][This message was edited by David Doggett on 26 April 2003 at 01:37 PM.]

Tony LaCroix · Post by **Tony LaCroix** » 28 Apr 2003 9:11 am

Thank you all for such informative replies. I'm still looking and have decided to include S-12s in my search. I'm still confused about one thing, though. If I buy a U-12, can it easily be changed to extended E9 tuning? I'm not interested in the universal tuning.

Thanks again. You've confirmed my suspicion that PSG players are ridiculously helpful and generous.

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 28 Apr 2003 10:00 am

I think you should start with an S-10, in the standard E9th tuning. It's easy enough to advance from that to Extended E9th, U-12 or D-10.

Modifying a U-12 to Extended E9th isn't too hard to do on most guitars, but it seems silly to remove pedals.

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<img align=right src="http://b0b.com/b0b.gif" width="64" height="64">Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs
Sierra Session 12 (E9), Williams 400X (Emaj9, D6), Sierra Olympic 12 (C6add9), Sierra Laptop 8 (D13), Fender Stringmaster (E13, A6),
Roland Handsonic, Line 6 Variax

David Doggett · Post by **David Doggett** » 28 Apr 2003 10:04 am

Tony, a universal can be converted to extended E9. You just have to add the D string as no. 9, and move the raises and lowers on 9, 10, and 11 over one string (and lose whatever is on 12. An extended E9 can be converted to a universal, but with only 3 (or sometimes 4) pedals it cannot have any B6(C6) raises and lowers (you can still get alot of B6 even so). In terms of pedals and knees, most universals are at least 6 and 5, and usually more, whereas extended E9s are usually 3 and 4. Because of these extra pedals and levers, universals cost more than extended E9s (but less than D-10s). However, on the used market prices are widely variable and you can find some universals that cost less than some extended E9s.

Nevertheless, as a beginner you should (and should be able) to buy pretty much the setup you want. You will want to spend your time practicing, not fiddling around with the mechanics. It can be complicated and time consuming and you may not even have the knowledge to know if you have got it right or not. I have known novices who had some really wierd setups and really clunky, stiff action without realizing it. Hope this helps, and good luck.

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Student of the Steel, and cheap instrument connoisseur: customized 1970 Sho-Bud Maverick, Fessy S12U, Emmons S12 E9 P/P, Nashville 400, Fender Squire, Peavey Transtube Supreme into JBL 15", 1968 Gibson J50, '60s Kay arch-top, 7-string Raybro, customized Korean Regal square-neck, roundneck Dobro 90C, 1938 Conn Chu Berry tenor sax, '50s Berg mouthpiece, Hamilton upright piano. You make it, I'll play it (more or less)

Guest · Post by **Guest** » 28 Apr 2003 10:20 am

What bob hoffnar said.

Mike Marchelya · Post by **Mike Marchelya** » 28 Apr 2003 10:45 am

Tony, like you I'm a "beginner" and after much deliberation, I went with a U-12. Since steel has such a long learning curve, I didn't see the point in learning two necks when one is tough enough. As your interests already include more than one style of music, you might be better served by a U-12 as well. Good luck.

David L. Donald · Post by **David L. Donald** » 28 Apr 2003 3:48 pm

Tony in Austin your in the land of Steel. A lot of C6 and country players there.

Find a steeler with a S-12, one with a U-12 and one with a D-10 in your area,
and sit at their knee for an hour each, and put your hands on with some direction.

Bring a CD with the type of music you want to be playing and have them jam to it.
The steel that get's closest is most likely your choice.
This would go a LONG way to helping with your decision. I didn't have the access to this resource you have and it was mind bending to decide on theory alone.
The only steel near me is a U-12, but not the standard copedent. He gets a great sound with it too. Any style. But I got an old D-10... the E9 neck sits a bit fallow and C6 is working hard.

Ron Randall · Post by **Ron Randall** » 28 Apr 2003 6:51 pm

Tony,

You are getting great advice.
Please read Reece Anderson's article here on the forum. Also Bobby Lee's article.

Just click (above) on Links and then on Articles. Lots of profound info here.

Ron

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 28 Apr 2003 7:47 pm

If you want to play country, and western swing, get a D10! If all you want to do is play pop and jazz, get a U12. But...if all you really want to play is blues, or alt rock, just get an S10. (If you're not going to do country, then you don't need the chromatic strings, and if you don't need the chromatics, then 10 strings is plenty!)

Tony Prior · Post by **Tony Prior** » 29 Apr 2003 3:28 am

Welcome Tony..great name by the way...

Me, I would just get a D10 loaded and be done with it.

Many opinions and fine advise, but you can "DO IT ALL " on a D10 and the best part is you will have a Steel that is 100% marketable should you ever decide to upgrade , sell or whatever..

Many may not agree with my statement but finacially you cannot go wrong with a D10 with a minumum of 8+5 that can also have knee's or pedals added and raises/lowers added or changed without difficulty .

You may not play the C6 tuning out of the gate, and some may say why do you have it..but if you take your time, and play it when you are ready..it's a killer....and great fun. Just don't try to play like Buddy , Doug or Paul the first week, wait till the second week !

Have fun !

Tony

Tony LaCroix · Post by **Tony LaCroix** » 29 Apr 2003 5:29 am

Again, thank you all. I've made arrangements to buy a BMI S-10 (3 & 5) from a dealer who will set it up for me. I guess the gentle voices of reason like b0b got through to me

I suspect that some day I'll want to explore an S-12. Then, I get to do this all over again!

Now, this thing has keys and valves, right? How do I strap it on?

Tony Prior · Post by **Tony Prior** » 29 Apr 2003 5:34 am

Congrats on your purchase. 3+5 is a very good set-up, lots of room to grow into the Steel.

I have found Velcro works best for strapping it on..have fun

TP

Chuck Martin · Post by **Chuck Martin** » 29 Apr 2003 5:00 pm

Congratulations and good luck on your life-long adventure!

Jeff A. Smith · Post by **Jeff A. Smith** » 29 Apr 2003 11:03 pm

I've made arrangements to buy a BMI S-10 (3 & 5)

Great! Whatever you end up doing, you won't waste any time with a setup like that.

I'm still just playing an S-10 E9 setup myself. Someday I will probably get a D-10 or an S or U-12, but I haven't really decided which yet.

One thing I've found: A lot of really intelligent planning has gone into that E9 tuning. Things that seem goofy or unnecesary at first one day reveal themselves to be part of a deep and beautiful whole.

Some of the greatest musicians alive today either have helped develop the E9 tuning, or at least are very happy with it. I tend to not want to change something like that too quickly.

Good luck Tony!

Jeff

[This message was edited by Jeff A. Smith on 30 April 2003 at 12:05 AM.][This message was edited by Jeff A. Smith on 30 April 2003 at 12:10 AM.]

David Doggett · Post by **David Doggett** » 1 May 2003 7:04 am

Tony, you can't go wrong learning 10-string E9. It's the basis for either 12-string setup, and you'll gain lots of skills that will prepare you for C6 if you decide to get a double neck later. You're doing well to start with a used professional instrument. It will sound and play well and you'll be able to make changes on it later if you want. Good luck, and get comfortable in that woodshed - you'll be in there awhile.