Tuning mysteries

John Steele · Post by **John Steele** » 19 Apr 2003 4:52 pm

No, I don't want to debate JI vs. ET. But I do have a couple of unresolved questions in my head...
1) Why are the "beats" produced by tuning ET more bothersome on a pedal steel than almost any other instrument ?
2) Why is it that, when you play with a guitar player who isn't in tune, it sounds like it's the steel that's out ?
-John

Jon Light · Post by **Jon Light** » 19 Apr 2003 5:04 pm

Answer to Question 2: it's the your fault because he's standing over you with a big piece of lumber in his hands.

As to the first--I wonder if there isn't something timbrally specific--maybe even more accentuated by a P/P's timbre, in that particular sweet spot, which is where those beats live, so to speak. Are other instruments' timbres more fundamental accentuated? Or less? Is the fact that we only pick strings (excepting, of course for the occasional strums) resulting in clearer, cleaner overtone ringing part of it? I think tonal clarity may in fact be part of the explanation.
Just running off at the keyboard here.....

C Dixon · Post by **C Dixon** » 19 Apr 2003 5:35 pm

this has been asked before. I will try to explain why.

Every musical instrument in the world gives off extra sounds (tones) when any given note (or notes) are played.

The extra tones are called overtones (harmonics) and they are based relative to the fundamental frequency (picked or played note). These harmonics can be simple or they can be very complex. And it IS the overtones that allow one to tell what instrument is playing a given note from any other instrument.

In other words each instrument has a "fingerprint" that is unique to that type of instrument. This print is in the overtones.

These harmonics are the secret to music's appeal or in some cases lack of appeal. BUT in the case of the PSG, it is a paradox. The overtones of the Steel guitar are soo incredibly beautiful to most ears.

That is the good part. The bad part is they also carry a curse. That curse is it allows beats between overtones to stand out like crazy. Whereas on instruments like the piano they can often be barely perceptible. EVEN when the piano is holding the sustain pedal engaged.

And if a player's ears are sensitive to these "stand out" beats on a steel guitar, it can drive one nuts. Whereas that same player might hardly notice it on another instrument, EVEN though both were tuned to ET.

The iteresting thing about it is, with time and much ear training, more can be tolerated and in some cases become totally acceptable. I say this by talking to those who have gotten to this point. I haven't, sadly.

Another interesting thing is; when all tune ET, ALL tune to the SAME frequency. When one doesn't, the same notes can be ALL over the place between players. Suggesting to me at least, that some are less tolerant than others. or more succinctly, some are getting closer to ET than others.

Oh well

carl

Ron Randall · Post by **Ron Randall** » 19 Apr 2003 5:49 pm

Our ears can hear it. I think it is the harmonies we play. Plus the sustain that we all want. It is possible to sustain some ugly sounds that are only slightly off.

As mentioned above, we tend to play clean amps, picked notes. Gotta be almost perfect.

Some steelers use enough chorus flanger reverb pitch shifter rotosphere echo distortion that nobody would know.

Seems to me the Sacred Steelers are the best at sustaining that pure harmony.

Hope this helps.

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 19 Apr 2003 6:13 pm

Why are the "beats" produced by tuning ET more bothersome on a pedal steel than almost any other instrument ?

Uhhh...maybe because you're a steelplayer, and you are listening more critically to the steel than you do other instruments? To be honest, I notice them (those pesky "beats") a lot on certain straight guitar players, and an out-of-tune piano also sounds pretty bad to me. However, after all these years of just steelplaying, I tend to notice deficiencies with the steel first!

On the issue of playing with an out of tune guitar player, I think it's the fact that we're always trying to "fit in" with the other instruments. Our instrument is fretless, so we are constantly "adjusting" to blend in. If the straight guitar player's out of tune, then the natural tendency is to try and be "in tune" with him...meaning there's now two instruments playing "out of tune"!

If the straight guitar's "out", I still play "in". Yeah, it sounds bad...but not as bad as when we're both out! (The real musicians in the crowd know who it is thats out of tune.) And yes, it takes a lot of concentration to play under those conditions!.

"If the world is wrong, right yourself"

(Brother Dave Gardner)[This message was edited by Donny Hinson on 19 April 2003 at 07:25 PM.]

Jeff Lampert · Post by **Jeff Lampert** » 19 Apr 2003 6:55 pm

John,
I asked that question some time ago as well, and at the time, Carl provided the only answer that made sense. Something inherent in the sustaining and overtone properties of the steel grealy exaggerates the beating effect. I have played guitar for many years, and there is no question in my mind that you can tune a guitar straight-up 440 ET, and it is perfectly useable, even though the notes are clearly not in tune. Tuning 440 / ET on steel produces beating and irritation that is psychologically much worse than on electric guitar, or piano for that matter.

C Dixon · Post by **C Dixon** » 20 Apr 2003 5:33 am

Talkin about tuning mysteries, the following mystery has caused me great consternation for many years. And that mystery is the phrase that we ALL use ALL the time.

And that of course is the term "in tune". Chet Atkins has been quoted as saying on stage, "If I EVER get this guitar in tune, I am gonna solder it!"

After studying it for over 50 yrs, the term "in tune" has got to win the "oyymoron" award of all time.

Because when one thinks about it, what exactly does it mean? IF one person tunes their steel so that the thirds are "minus" 5 cents; and another tunes them where they are minus 14 cents; and another tunes them for zero beats (JI); and yet another tunes them straight ET,

Which one is "in tune"? Worse yet, which one is "out of tune"?

carl

George McLellan · Post by **George McLellan** » 20 Apr 2003 7:45 am

Carl, I agree with you. This "who is right" about tuning can drive you nuts. After years of diesel engines, I've come to the point where I use a tuner all the time. Now if someone I'm playing with seems off, I hand that person my tuner and tell them to check theirs.

One of the best articles I've read regarding tuning was by Tom Bradshaw in his catalog "Steel Guitar - The Artists - The Music"

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SUAS U' PHIOB
Geo

David Doggett · Post by **David Doggett** » 20 Apr 2003 8:38 am

According to the human ear JI is "in tune" and everything else is a compromise.

They settled all this years ago in classical music. None of the main instruments in a symphony orchestra are fixed pitch. Horns all have variable pitch. The key holes and valves may be tuned to ET, but the lips usually play JI to the ears. The string instruments are all tuned in fifths where ET and JI are essentially the same. Still the open strings will clash with JI in some keys and chords. But where there is a choice, string players usually avoid the open strings and prefer fingering the note on the next lower string so they can use JI and vibrato.

Only the percussion instruments are fixed ET, and except for drums these are only played occassionally. Harps are not played too often, and they are so soft that their ET doesn't clash much with the rest of the orchestra. Pianos are only dragged out on stage for the occassional piano concerto. Then everyone else in the orchestra blends their JI toward the piano's ET as needed and uses vibrato. This is what steelers have to do when playing with ET tuned guitars and keyboards.

The steel is a fretless instrument and so can be played to JI, but we now have so many strings and pedal and knee stops that you can't get everything to JI. Some people give up and tune everything to ET, some of us tune JI with small compromises here and there, and some tune ET with small compromises here and there. It's a complicated instrument to tune. It doesn't seem like being a slave to beat tuning is such a great idea, any more than being a slave to pure JI or exact ET. You find the compromises you can live with for the type of music you play, then with a little vibrato, a loud drummer, and the noisy crowd at the bar it may come out acceptable.

[This message was edited by David Doggett on 20 April 2003 at 10:00 AM.]

Larry Bell · Post by **Larry Bell** » 20 Apr 2003 8:59 am

If you're wonderin' whether it's the steel player or guitar player who's out of tune, I can tell you, it's most often the guitar player. Once he bends those spider webs he calls strings once or twice, the tuning is compromised. I think I'm out of tune often, only to find I'm fine with myself and with the standard. That is the only definition of 'in tune' I can understand and cope with on the bandstand.

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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps

frank rogers · Post by **frank rogers** » 20 Apr 2003 11:59 am

IMHO, The biggest problem with JT is that as soon as the 3rd tones are justified, ie the A&B pedal combination, the tuning issue is further exacerbated when those same strings become the root tones within another pedal combination, ie, A&F combo. We then justify the "new" set of 3rd tones, which continues further softening or "flattening"the entire tuning. We then come to the point where most combinations become "sour" to the ear. For me, the best "medicine" for my ears, is to tune as close to equal temperment as possible. This allows for the most versatility when using multiple combinations. BTW, Practicing along with an electronic keyboard has helped my ears to adjust to = temp.[This message was edited by frank rogers on 20 April 2003 at 01:00 PM.]

Damir Besic · Post by **Damir Besic** » 20 Apr 2003 2:42 pm

You are either in tune or not.How do you call your tuning (JT,ET,FN,GFL or whatever) nobody really cares.
I have spoken...

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Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 20 Apr 2003 2:55 pm

If this Forum has accomplished anything, it has raised awareness of the issue of temperment. Before the Forum, most steelers mistakenly called Just Intonation "tempered tuning". Today, everyone knows that tuning straight up on a meter is Equal Temperment.

I don't believe that the beats are more objectionable on a steel than they are on a standard guitar. But think about the chord inversions a guitarist plays. There aren't many chord positions on guitar where you can actually play root-3rd-5th-octave - usually a note is skipped somewhere.

Also, the steel player will add close intervals into the mix: r-3-5-6-r or r-3-5-b7 are pretty rare on guitar, but they're all over the place on steel.

As for keyboard instruments, anyone who thinks a note on the piano is really one note has never looked inside a piano. The hammers are striking 2 or 3 strings at once, and those strings are not tuned the same. This fact covers the out-of-tuneness of the piano quite nicely. Try tuning a harpsichord, which only has one one string per key, to ET and you'll hear the beats just like you do on a pedal steel.

What about those combo organs from the '60s, or a Fender Rhodes? Do those instruments really sound in tune to you? I hear beats all over the place, but I accept that sound as the nature of the beast.

As I was learning C6th (quite recently!), I tuned to ET with a meter because I didn't know or understand the chord positions. I played C6th with bands, even on a few recordings, and it sounded fine. But now that I understand how the chords fit together on the tuning, I've retuned by ear and I like it better.

A critical ear can be a curse. I think we need to train our ears to hear pitch well, but at the same time understand the boundaries of what the public hears as "in tune". Even an audience of musicians will accept thirds within a 15-cent range, in the context of a song.

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<img align=right src="http://b0b.com/b0b.gif" width="64" height="64">Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs
Sierra Session 12 (E9), Williams 400X (Emaj9, D6), Sierra Olympic 12 (C6add9), Sierra Laptop 8 (D13), Fender Stringmaster (E13, A6),
Roland Handsonic, Line 6 Variax

Pete Burak · Post by **Pete Burak** » 20 Apr 2003 3:17 pm

The fastest cure for other bandmembers who aren't in tune is to hand them a recording of them playing out of tune.

The tape don't lie!

Record your gigs and review the tapes.
This is a fast way to learn what pedal/lever combos you need to have in tune, and which ones won't be in tune due to the fact that the other ones ARE in tune (then stay away from those ones.).

Earnest Bovine · Post by **Earnest Bovine** » 20 Apr 2003 3:22 pm

...inside a piano. The hammers are striking 2 or 3 strings at once, and those strings are not tuned the same. This fact covers the out-of-tuneness of the piano quite nicely.

Actually the 3 strings on each note are tuned the same, or as close as possible. Any differences are much smaller than the difference between JI and ET.

b0b, I'm surpised that you didn't exaplin the best reasom that we steel payers don't tune ET: it's because we can't. By that I mean that our steels are never in tune as well as we like, due to pedals, bar pressure, etc. So we tune our major 3rds somewhere in the safe interval between ET and 14 cents flat. That way we still sound OK when things go wrong.

David L. Donald · Post by **David L. Donald** » 20 Apr 2003 3:39 pm

Carl, as a rarely do with your posts, I must disagree with you thoughts on piano tuning.
My oldest and dearest friend has been a piano tuner for 30+ years.
I just recorded him in NYC in january. He gave a hour lecture to the studio team about their piano's regulation and tuning.

There are beats all over the place, but as Bobby said they are across multiple stings.
But even within a single note there are tempering differences with a good tuner (human).

The beats are tempered differently at every octave of the piano and even the C's are a bit different across the range. It is the skill of the tuner to judge the "cabinet drop" / pinboard of the piano and the style of the player owning it and make several hundred beat frequency decisions on the piano.
All differently across the whole range. It really is a mind blowing job.

What is in tune... ha.. totally subjective.
Wendy Carlos does microtonal music with special synths that have several more than the 12 tones in our normal octaves. 16 note octaves, 9 note octaves, 24 note octaves... all in tune from her perspective. I know a fluteplayer from Macedonia who gets 52 notes over 2 octaves... he is in tune.

Then there are the Indian players. If you play a C within a few cents of the same way you played it the time before, you are considered an amateur. But they are still in tune. From their perspective. Western tempered tuning is a generalization of what the piano needs done to make it listenable. We are used to it.

In an orchestra usually the concert master / 1st violin will get his note from the Oboe. The Oboe can't change pitch other than rewinding the reeds they each have to make themselves.

Then the concertmaster gives that note to the rest of the players.

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 20 Apr 2003 4:49 pm

I tune out the beats, as much as possible, and then I adjust the bar when I play on the strings that are significantly "out". Yeah, I've listened to "microtonal music", and it all sounds "out of tune", to me!

Now, I don't mean to offend anyone, but when someone says the music the East (India, for example), has special qualities, I will agree. Whether or not they are good qualities, however, is subject to some conjecture. To me, the vast majority of it sounds like the 3rd grade clarinet class.

Come to think of it, we've all heard "microtonal" music at one time or another...when listening to a steelplayer or a violinist on their first day playing the instrument. Basically, that's what "microtonal" music sounds like, and I'm sorry, I don't particularly care for it!

C Dixon · Post by **C Dixon** » 20 Apr 2003 5:31 pm

David,

I read your entire post, and I have yet to figure out WHAT it was you disagreed with. Everything you said is totally compatible with what I was trying to say as far as I can tell.

There are some points though that should be pointed out. One, because a piano IS stretched tuned as the octaves go up, it does NOT mean the notes WITHIN a given octave are tuned JI or anywhere approaching JI. In fact, a piano tuned by most good tuners will have all the notes very close to ET within octaves.

Secondly, I believe my point was missed. I was not lauding the virtues of ET, JI or anything in between. I was not concerned with ANY thing but instruments that are tuned ET.

My point was addressing the question that was raised by the author of the thread. And that is "Why are the "beats" produced by tuning ET more bothersome on a pedal steel than almost any other instrument ?"

The answer is still the same. It is because of the overtones that are sooooo unique on the Pedal steel guitar versus any other instrument I know of. And the best example IS the piano.

If a person tunes their Pedal steel ET, strikes a C E G note chord at middle C; then strikes that same C E G notes on a piano at middle C, most players will hear a decided OUT of tuneness respect to the steel and a MUCH less out of tuneness on the piano. That was my ONLY point. I was NOT addressing ANY other issue.

And to b0bby, I have addressed your belief that the three strings on a given note on a piano are tuned differently. I have asked several piano tuners here in the Atlanta area about this. In EVERY case, they have been adamant that ALL three strings ARE tuned to the same exact frequency. I do not know. I am NOT a piano tuner.

But I had heard for years that what you said was true. I am told this is NOT true by these piano tuners. Again I do not know. So let's forget the piano. Let's use the regular guitar.

My thesis still stands. IF one tunes a regular guitar to straight ET and tunes a steel guitar to straight ET, most feel the steel guitar sounds much more out of tune than the regular guitar on any given chord they play, respectively. Thus verifying this thread's author's question.

I must agree with this 100%. And the ONLY reason I can come up with, is the wide difference in overtones between the two instruments.

carl

Wayne Cox · Post by **Wayne Cox** » 20 Apr 2003 5:53 pm

Wow, I think I'll stay out of this topic; even the very subject is subjective!!:EEK:
~~W.C.~~

John Steele · Post by **John Steele** » 20 Apr 2003 7:02 pm

Thanks gang. I think the overtone/sustain theory is a pretty good explanation for the beats. I've never found beats on any other instrument as bothersome as this one.
I'm guessing an organ with no leslie, or a vibraphone with no oscillation going on would be close seconds.

With respect to the "why is it ME that sounds out" question, I think I answered it myself last night. The answer is: Whoever is Louder Wins.

25 db earplugs anyone ?

Yeah, the 3 strings for each note on a piano are tuned together, beatless... and it's stretched. Piano tuners will actually tune your piano ET straight up from top to bottom if you want them to. I had a tuner offer that as as option to stretched tuning one time. (I declined)

In various tuning threads over the years, there has been reference to other instruments and their methods of tuning. I have to comment on that; I've been privileged to meet lots of different instrumentalists, who operate in many different genres, and none of them seem to know as much about temperments and tuning as steel players do. I'd qualify that by saying I don't know many period harpsichordists or Bach-era type cats.

Horn players may possibly be the worst. Think of it, they're always in tune with themselves when they take their horn out at home... they never have to fuss around about tuning... so much so that some of them have to be reminded of the need to tune to the rest of the band when playing out. Sheesh. Try to carry on a conversation about temperments with a trumpet player or a saxophonist sometime. There are exceptions of course, but generally they don't have a clue what you're talking about.
Thanks for the responses, all. You can close this one, b0b, thanks.
-John [This message was edited by John Steele on 20 April 2003 at 08:03 PM.]

rhcarden · Post by **rhcarden** » 20 Apr 2003 7:54 pm

A lot of us steel players use two amps and play very loud. Does this make use sound more in tune? Or, maby we do this so that we don't here the instruments that tune differant than we do. The differance between G# and Ab is something I learned to live with back in the mid seventies. The thing that realy bugs me is the guitar player who tunes his 3rd string flat so his open E chord sounds good making the C chord have a flat G, the D chord a flat A, the A chord has one A in and the other out, and so on. It must realy bug him when we tune our G# flat!

I'm not sure that ET is for everybody; however, it works for me. I had a very good Branson steel player set in on my guitar and I am sure, it did not work for him!

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Bob Carden 66 Emmons P/P 8/9
BMI 13 string 7/7

Don McClellan · Post by **Don McClellan** » 20 Apr 2003 11:47 pm

One way to prevent the frustrating sounds of "outoftuneness" is to avoid playing the chords that sound the worst. As we all know some chords are much worse than others and I believe Paul Franklin was quoted saying he mostly plays two notes at a time or just one rather than 3 or 4 note chords. There's no good excuse for being out of tune when you're playing just two notes. Check out Bud Tutmarc. He plays mostly one note at a time and his intunation (and tone) are mindboggling. He's a non-pedaler but listen to him anyway. Don

David L. Donald · Post by **David L. Donald** » 21 Apr 2003 5:32 am

Carl I am not in big disagreement with this, but

Whereas on instruments like the piano they can often be barely perceptible. EVEN when the piano is holding the sustain pedal engaged.

I find these beats acceptable with a good tuners work, but FAR from barely perceptable.

So far I have yet to hear a piano where the three strings of any note were beatless. Pretty close in many cases, but beatless, no.
It becomes a question of how long between beats. Tuners put a mute on the left and right strings and do the center one, then remove a mute and then the other sometimes replacing the first mute, then with no mutes.

Most people leave when the piano tuner comes and starts to work. I have watched and participated many times in the process on my old Steinway's. I've taken my turns with the hammer, and come up wanting, but learned from the process.

Western ears / brains are entrained by years of hearing western tempered music to recognize that as correct. The easterners don't have this.. well I don't want to say handicap, but maybe block is a better word.
I have recorded 3 sessions of indian music acts in France touring from India, and after about an hour I was getting into it.
At first it was work, but the brain is an amzingly adaptable organ. Still we westerners have our brains programmed to expect a tempered 12 tones scale i.e too blue a note makes us cringe a bit.

The piano tuners art and alchemy is to temper pianos to be closest over their range of what westerners want to hear. The chorusing effects of the alegedly beatless 3 string pairs helps mask this harmonic discontinuity. That's why real piano players have a hard time getting used to digital pianos.
Some piano tuners use a variation of the circle of fifths but even within that it is tempered by octaves relative to the pianos center. C with G a few beats south of pure and so forth. A touch differently a different octaves.
There are a lot of piano tuners with lots of old and new ideas, much like PSG copednents.
But not all of them get you a GREAT piano.
I have had guys I would never let near my studio pianos again, yet they had been doing it for a living for decades.

PSG's don't have this multi-string masking, they do have a wider range of possible ringing strings than many instruments, but no natural chorusing to natually mask the harmonic divergences like the piano.
So we work like demons to get a good over all tempering to fit our western ears. It also explains why even Buddy E. used a Phase 90 all night, as some forumite noted, when he first tried one.
IMHO Your mileage may vary and your tuner may disagree.

C Dixon · Post by **C Dixon** » 21 Apr 2003 8:48 am

Ok!

VERY respectively, may we start over?

The author of this thread asked a question,

"Why are the "beats" produced by tuning ET more bothersome on a pedal steel than almost any other instrument ?"

Now please, THAT is the question. We are not talking about ET pros and cons, or JI pros and cons or the differences between them. WE are not talking about the art of tuning pianos, or the fact that a horn player can shift (slightly) a given note's pitch.

We are talking about WHY a PSG sounds SOOOOOO bad to most players' ears when it is tuned straight ET; yet it does not sound THAT bad on any other instrument.

In some cases (I repeat) and instrument like the piano can be tuned ET and be very tolerable to my ears. And apparently others. Yet when I tune my Steel to the exact same notes, it sounds awful. The same goes for the regular guitar, or most any other multiple (simultaneous) note instrument.

That is the question. Many players say it. The threads author asked it. Some of the posters on this thread said it. I have noticed it for years.

Why is it?

I maintain the answer is in the overtones of a given instrumet respect to other given instruments. Because my background is in electronics, I have extensive training in the nature of sound and all its particulars respect to fundamental versus harmonic frequencies.

So to me, the answer lies in the number and amplitude of a PSG's harmonics (overtones) and that of any other instrument's harmonics that I know of.

If there is another explanation, I have never heard one that makes sense to me.

carl

Carl West · Post by **Carl West** » 21 Apr 2003 9:01 am

Al Petty was big on the tuning theroy. He showed me once and I like to drove myself crazy. When it's in tune it's actually out of tune etc. Like most all do I use a chromatic tuner but not for every string. Like JayDee Maness says and I agree completly, Tune to set your pitch 440 etc. then tune by ear. Relying on a tuner for every string won't get it. Eventually your ear will work like it should. (in most cases) We can spend so much time in tuning and tuning theroy that it can cost us in other areas. Like it was mentioned, the musican listening will know who out and who isn't. Steel guitar, moving parts, cabinet drop . . all play a part. I've set across from Buddy Emmons, Jay Dee maness and other greats. They may feel their out of tune
but boy you'd never make me believe it !
Pick away my friends !

Carl West
Emmons LaGrande lll