Music Theory Issues.

[Jim Curtain]

Does anyone on this board struggle with music theory? I have Winies book, Mickey Adams book, I get to a point early on with my studies and then my stupid switch gets turned on. It doesn't make any sense! I then get frustrated, put on a CD and play along. BTW, math was my worst subject in school. All suggestions are welcome! Thank you for your time.

[Curt Trisko]

I can't help, but I can sympathize. When I try to advance my learning after a day at work, nothing sinks in.

I work in a field that requires a lot of logical, linear thinking and I've found that this only partially carries over to learning music theory. The music theory we know is just a language to describe wavelength, amplitude, etc. of sound waves. However, as a music teacher once told me, music "theory", isn't theory at all, it's simply fact.

Our textbook way of charting music seems to come from before the time that people really began to appreciate having simple, logical systems for doing things. Systems like the Nashville numbering system are so much easier to conceptualize. I almost wish someone would clean the slate on music theory and rewrite in a more logical way.

[Mark van Allen]

I do think the number system is the answer.

• We can train our "ear" to hear the music being played around us in numbers, recognizing the progression and harmony in terms of it's position in the harmonized scale of the key of the moment. (Or in the cracks!)
  We can learn the chords, scales, pedal and knee lever functions available to us on our instrument in terms of the number system so there's no 'translation" involved, i.e; we're hearing a I to vi movement in the music, and know a number of ways to approach that movement on the instrument.
  We can add new ideas, licks, concepts to our "bag" by visualizing them in the number system and slotting it into our "database".

And we end up with a "unified field" system of hearing, cataloging, remembering, and building knowledge. It seemed like math to me at first until I got excited by the power and beauty a little knowledge brings to playing.

[Richard Sinkler]

It depends on how deep into theory you want to go. I know enough to do my job as a performing musician. I don't need to be a professor to do that. I do think some theory is necessary. Scales and how to construct them, chord construction, harmony theory, chord progressions and how and why they work. These are the basic requirements I felt I needed to be a decent performing musician. I do not sight read and it hasn't hampered my "career".

Some will fight he notion of learning theory at all. To tell the truth, they know some and don't realize it.

[CrowBear Schmitt]

i'm w: MVA on this one
the number system is the way to go
easier than traditional or classical theory
we all know how to read & write ?
musik is easier imo - 12 notes = 7 whites & 5 blacks on the piano
it's math applied to sound & how notes get " stacked up " or applied to each other
ear training is a must !
if one's ears don't learn how to identify the notes, hang it up & open a gas station or sell hot dogs
my suggestion would be to find a good teacher Jim, who can help you understand & hear the notes & what they do or bring

1------2-----3-----4-----5-----6------7---------8 octave
Do----Re----Mi----Fa----Sol---La-----Si---------Do
Root--------Third--------Fifth---------Seventh----Root

everything in life comes in twos - so it is in musik
Happy = Major = major third : in C = E
Sad = Minor = Minor third = in C Eb

same w: sevenths
Major 7 = in C = B
Minor 7 = in C = Bb

Basic chords have 3 notes : 1/root - 5/Fifth - Major third : E OR Minor third : Eb
then one adds a 4th note :
Major 7 : in C : B ( C E G B )
Minor 7 : in C : Bb ( C Eb G Bb )
6th : in C : A ( C E G A )
Dominant 7th : in C : Bb ( C E G Bb )

the same numbers apply to scales
you take the same C major scale & start on the 1, then go to the 2, the 3, the 4 & so on up to the octave C/Root

example : ( D lowers string 2 a half tone )

1°---C ( Ionian) Cmaj7
1
2----------------------------------8
3
4---------------------------------------8
5------------------------8---8A
6-------------8---8B
7--------8
8---8

2°---D ( Dorian ) D minor7
1--------------------------------------8
2-----------------------------8
3
4----------------------------------8
5-------------------8---8A
6--------8---8B
7---8

3°---E ( Phrygian ) E minor 7
1--------------------------------------8
2----------------------------8
3-------------------------------------------8
4---------------------------------8
5----------------8----8A
6---8----8B

4°---F ( Lydian ) Fmaj7
1---------------------------------8
2---------------------8
3----------------------------------------8---8B
4---------------------------8
5---------8----8A
6---8B

5°---G ( Mixolydian ) G7 dominant
1
2----------------------------------------------15D
3
4------------------------------------------------------15
5--------------------------------15----15A
6----------------15----15B
7---------15
8---15

6°---A ( Aéolian ) A minor7
1----------------------------------------------------------15
2-----------------------------------------15D
3
4--------------------------------------------------15
5--------------------------15----15A
6----------15----15B
7---15

7° ---B ( Locrian ) B minor b5 ( flatted fifth)
1-------------------------------------------------15
2---------------------------------15D
3----------------------------------------------------------15
4------------------------------------------15
5------------------15----15A
6---15----15B

1°---C ( Ionian) Cmaj7

1----------------------------------------15
2-------------------------15D
3-----------------------------------------------15----15B
4----------------------------------15
5------------15---15A
6---15B

if you've played these scales, you'll notice that you have played the same Cmajor scale in different positions for different voicings
such as major 7, Minor 7, Dominant 7 chords

of course this is just a beginning cause once you venture into Musik, the plot thickens
as long as your ears hear it & identify, you're doin' good

[Chris Brooks]

I agree with Mark, et juis' d'accord avec M. CrowBear (Salut, mon ami!).

Start with numbers. Take a major scale. Assign a number to each note. Ear train by listening to tunes and mentally assigning numbers to the chords. Get Chas Williams' book on Nashville Number System.

Step 2: Spell the common major scales; you know, "Bb C D Eb F G A Bb."

Step 3. Get clear on the 4 basic types of chords: major, minor, (dominant 7th) and diminished.

Step 4: Learn and speak the common cadences--mini progressions--in the common keys: "1 4 5 1 . . . Bb Eb F7 Bb."

Step 5: Investigate chord substitutions, like subbing a 3 minor for a 1 major.

Step 6: Learn some extensions of chords, most commonly with 7th chords: for example, how do you make a Bb7 b5 chord?

Step 6, which goes on over a lifetime: Learn chord progressions of as many tunes as you can, looking for internal structures like those cadences.

(early morning ideas from Chris)

[Jim Palenscar]

Mike Perlowin wrote a really good book called Music Theory in the Real World that also has an online supplement for the steel guitar. It is inexpensive and published by Mel Bay- I always carry them as it could easily be entitled "Music Theory for Dummies" and it makes an otherwise complicated subject easy to understand.

[Clark Doughty]

Markk Van Allen also has an E9 Pedal Steel Guitar Course on theory and the number system and its designed for the pedal steel guitar. Two CD's and you can play and learn until you get it. Thanks Mark
I also have Mike's book but didn't know about the online supplement...........clark

[Niels Andrews]

I wish the first thing I would have ever learned was music theory. I played 40 years not knowing anything about it. I thank the Pedal Steel for forcing me to go learn more. The only math involved is being able to count to 13 and if you can count to eight you can get by.
One you get some basic theory and learn the Nashville number system you are one your way. You can play any song in any key, then you are just down to developing your sound.

[Mickey Adams]

In most cases, people that play by ear tend to fear music theory. The number of formulas to learn in finite, and basic addition skills are all that is required when it comes to understanding chord structure, and composition. EQUATING this to what we hear is a different story. Id go on for an hour, but ...LOL

[Clark Doughty]

Just another word re MIke Perlowin's book, Music Theory in the Real World. This presentation is well done and easier to understand than anything else I've tried. He also has a supplement which relates his presentation directly to the E9 Pedal Steel Guitar. This helps a great deal when trying to relate theory to the PSG. Thanks Mike for your committment to our learning.......clark

PS....It's very easy to get the supplement free of charge. Just email Mike and ask for it and presto you'll have it.

[Lana Carroll]

I've used Mike Perlowin's book and Mark van Allen's CDs as well and they are both excellent resources. Mike's book (and supplement) lays it all out in a way that is really easy to understand, and Mark's CDs explain all the concepts very clearly and relate them to the steel guitar as you go. They make a great team!

[David Mason]

I'm one of those people who can do math pretty well but just don't like it that much. I know how to pull stuff apart, find the chords in classical and all, but I sure do like my fingers actually on some strings... I've know people who could sit off in a corner with a pad of music manuscript paper and entertain themselves for hours. "Music" is a very large tent though, and just by poking around there's bound to be some things that match. You might find lessons, or even a course at a community college, will kick open some (mental) doors. I've completely atomized a guitar student's world view by pointing out the part of Tchaikovsky's Violin Concerto where he began copping the Beatles' "Hey Jude" chord changes....

[Stuart Legg]

Music theory is just another one of those things that divide us.

Simple answers aren’t very satisfying for people who are serious about music theory.

My take on it (here on the forum) is who cares?

Folks have decided to just not be serious about it.

So just keep yukin’ it up like you've been doing.

[Bill McCloskey]

The thing that turned a lot of lights on for me was Mark Levine's Jazz Theory book. Don't let the Jazz in the title scare you, what he talks about applies to any music.

It is important not to take too much at once. When practicing scales, grips, positions, etc, I just try live with what I'm learning for a while. So I might practice C scales and grips and then F and stay with C and F for a couple of days, just learning how those notes not only sound but look on the fretboard. The next day I'll continue around the circle of 5ths and add a Bb to the mix, and slowly work your way around the circle.

For me TIME is a big factor. I brains need to form new synapses, new connections in order to cement what we are learning which means repetition over time. No way around it.

[Mike Perlowin]

Thanks to all who mentioned my book. Here is a link:
http://www.melbay.com/Products/98207/mu ... world.aspx

My book does not contain any information that can't be found in every other music theory book, but all the others are geared toward college students, and I wrote mine for country and rock musicians. As others have stated, I made it as easy to understand as possible, including examples from familiar tunes like Mary had a Little Lamb, and Silent Night, instead of obscure passages from symphonies.

For example: If I asked most of you to sing an ascending perfect 4th, you would not know what I meant. But everybody here can sing Here Comes the Bride. Well, the ascending perfect 4th is the interval between "Here" and "comes." So now, you all know what that interval sounds like. BTW, The first 2 notes of I've Been Working on the Railroad is a descending perfect 4th.

You might not know what these intervals are or how they are used, but you know what they sound like, so when you read about them, you'll have an instinctive understanding about them.

The book assumes that the reader knows absolutely nothing and starts at the most basic elementary level, and builds in complexity as it goes along. Many readers skip the first lesson because they already know everything in it.

I also wrote a steel guitar supplement with tabs of the examples, and an explanation of how the concepts in the book relate to the E9 pedal changes. This supplement is free to anybody who writes me and asks for it.

[Jim Curtain]

I thank you all for your tips, ideas, and insights. I realize that I just need to get off my hind-parts and study.

[Niels Andrews]

I think for many of us we make theory more difficult than it is. It isn't that difficult and there isn't an exam. What it has given me is the knowledge of where the song is headed Nd the ability to improvise, which has added 100 fold to my enjoyment of playing any instrument I pick up. I encourage everyone to learn a little theory.

[Joel Meginsky]

You can't "sing" a chord with one voice. However you can sing the individual notes on their scale degree number. A "1" chord is 1-3-5, a "2" chord is 2-4-6, etc.
Try going from one chord to another and back. For example, to go from a "1" chord to a "5" chord and back to "1", you could sing the scale degrees of the "1" chord, 1-3-5-3-1 (I like to go up and down), then the "5" chord, 5-7-2-7-5. Even easier, do what a pianist would do. Stay in the vicinity of the first note of the scale. This involves rearranging the order of the notes. For example the above progression I-V-I (I prefer to use the classical Roman numeral system), would be sung 1-3-5-3-1, 7-2-5-2-7, 1-3-5-3-1. That's how a pianist might play it in the right hand if he didn't want to move around so much. Joel

[Nic du Toit]

....and learn the difference between a Major 7th, a Minor 7th, and a dominant 7th....

[David Mason]

Well, without knowing if you're a reading-type-person or a doing-type-person, I'll throw up* a few more books:

Mark Levine's "Jazz Theory Book" is a great reference, but without some teacher or somebody imposing some structure, it doesn't really lead to knowledge in a progressive way. Now if you're the kind of person who sees that a m7b5 chord is almost always leading to or coming from a 7b9 chord a fourth away, you could construct your own study guide to Levine's book and get great results - but I see it as a reference.

I first heard about "The Music of Miles Davis" by Lex Giel here on the forum. I find it to be a pretty good, well-ranged music theory primer hung on the framework of Miles' music. And if you like a bit of history and personality connected to each point, Paul F. Berliner's "Thinking in Jazz" is a great book - the origins of most of the points made are discussed, often with the musicians who developed them. This makes for both enjoyable reading and some context, because music theory is largely based on describing something that's already happened, and nudging the rules around to accommodate.

*(figuratively...)

[Bill McCloskey]

+ 1 on the Music of Miles Davis book. Great reference as well.

[Bill McCloskey]

Actually I think the first question to ask is: why do you want to know theory?

Do you want to know theory in order to be able to improvise better? To compose better? to arrange better?

I think you need to start by asking yourself that first. Then you can decide on a course of action.

[CrowBear Schmitt]

Actually I think the first question to ask is: why do you want to know theory?

my first reply would be : " in order to play w: other musicians "

[Niels Andrews]

Everyone knows some theory, even if learned by Osmosis. Why do you want to learn theory is akin to why did the chicken cross the road.