Opinions on this copedent change...

Lane Gray · Post by **Lane Gray** » 4 Mar 2013 5:17 pm

B is how I'd do it

Jim Hoke · Post by **Jim Hoke** » 4 Mar 2013 6:41 pm

B is good. However, you'd really like having your 6 lower separate from the 1&2 raise. There's a lot to be done using the 1&2 raise with A&B engaged, which you can't do this way.

Dickie Whitley · Post by **Dickie Whitley** » 4 Mar 2013 6:50 pm

Richard Sinkler · Post by **Richard Sinkler** » 4 Mar 2013 7:37 pm

B is good, but you might want to swap LKR and LKL. Since the A pedal is used a lot with the lever that raise the E's to F, and when you rock you foot on to the A pedal, your knee is going to want to go to your left making the combination much more comfortable. The same holds true for the B pedal and the lever that lowers the E's. I only know of a couple of people that have them set up like you do, and it it hurts me to watch them play.

Russ Wever · Post by **Russ Wever** » 4 Mar 2013 10:13 pm

I'm curious as to how you, in your current set-up,
tune the two G notes (the one on the first string
and the one on the seventh string) independently
of each other?
Or is it such that you have but one adjustment that
takes care of both, with the hope that coincedence
will have both strings at a useable pitch?
~Russ

John McClung · Post by **John McClung** » 4 Mar 2013 10:44 pm

What Jim Hoke said about not having top 2 strings raise on the same lever as the 6th string lower. I agree. Paul Franklin strongly feels the same way. You lose some beautiful changes.

So: move string 1 half step raise from LKL-2 to your RKL, I've got it that way and very few conflicts with those together.

Move the strings 1 and 2 raises to your LKL-2. That KL should be a secondary one; my rear LKL-1 is the main lever, the front KLK-2 I reach out to use.

Also I agree with Rich on swapping your LKL and LKR, you have those in very awkward positions. Particularly, lowering E's on LKR is best, for reasons Rich stated, but I also use it all the time with the string 6 lower on RKL, and it's just ergonomically better to move both knees towards each other in an opposite and opposed movement, rather than swiveling left with both knees, that's just not as balanced.

Otherwise, this is a great and powerful copedent.

Dickie Whitley · Post by **Dickie Whitley** » 5 Mar 2013 3:13 am

Richard Sinkler · Post by **Richard Sinkler** » 5 Mar 2013 10:32 am

I also have just the 1st and 2nd string raises on a 2nd LKL like you are proposing. Works great there. As far as splitting the Franklin pedal, several people do, especially if they have had the 6th string lowering on lever for any length of time. I have had the lever for some 40 years. I tried the Franklin Pedal but never found much use for it and took it off. Before I did, I tried just lowering the B's to A and using the lever with it. Also didn't like that because the Franklin Pedal is also used with the E to D# lever and having to hit the pedal, and 2 knee levers on opposite knees at the same time was awkward. But, I do a similar combination when I use the 6th lowered, the E's lowered and let off the 6th lower and raising 6 with the B pedal, so I think I just didn't give it enough time to get good at it.

I'm really liking the direction you are going with the latest version.

Don Brown, Sr. · Post by **Don Brown, Sr.** » 5 Mar 2013 11:17 am

You might want to think again when telling him to change his knee levers around. I noticed he's playing the "Day Setup" that calls for the two knees to be on opposite sides from the Emmons Setup.

Just a thought..

Richard Sinkler · Post by **Richard Sinkler** » 5 Mar 2013 12:48 pm

Don Brown said:

You might want to think again when telling him to change his knee levers around. I noticed he's playing the "Day Setup" that calls for the two knees to be on opposite sides from the Emmons Setup.

Just a thought..

Actually Don, he is playing an "Emmons" setup. He is just starting the A pedal at the pedal 2 position, B at pedal 3, C at pedal 4. I DO play a day setup, and have my C pedal at position 2, B at position 3, and the A pedal at position 4 as I have a pedal to the left of the A,B,C grouping and also one to the right of them (5 pedals total)

Don Brown, Sr. · Post by **Don Brown, Sr.** » 5 Mar 2013 1:42 pm

Darn Richard, You are correct. I must have rolled my smoke (cigarette) too tight.

Guess I'll learn not to miss the eye doctor appointment next time........

Richard Sinkler · Post by **Richard Sinkler** » 5 Mar 2013 2:12 pm

Or rolled up the wrong kind of terbacky.

John McClung · Post by **John McClung** » 5 Mar 2013 3:49 pm

Dickie, you might consider string 7 F# > G on LKL2, that's the combo I have on my LKFwd, no conflicts and it's still a nice change to have, turns pedals down A6 to A7, among other things.

Or, raise string 7 to G#, that's a popular change that has good uses. I don't have that on my axe, just nowhere left to add it.

I don't lower string 6 with strings 5 and 10 on the Franklin pedal, there are some nice things you can do with those split up; but there are times when I wish everything was on the PF pedal, for the sake of better timing and ergonomics.

If you study my copedent, you'll see the godawful awkward move I have to make to get the full PF change, rocking left with left leg on pedal zero, pushing right with LKR, ugh! I'd love a quick way to engage/disengage the string 6 lower on the Franklin pedal, anyone have a solution for that? I think Bruce Zumsteg devised a way for Buddy Emmons to disengage the string 10 raise with pedal A, how'd he achieve that?

Here's my 12 string copedent, FYI. The advantage of having E's up and down on the right knee is that each highly used KL can be used with so much of the left knee cluster. But it's certainly not necessary.

Dickie Whitley · Post by **Dickie Whitley** » 5 Mar 2013 7:17 pm

Lane Gray · Post by **Lane Gray** » 5 Mar 2013 8:26 pm

I think Dickie has the winner

John McClung · Post by **John McClung** » 6 Mar 2013 12:37 pm

Dickie, I'd advise against that string 7 half step raise on your RKR, that'll mean on the lower strings, with pedals A+B engaged, then adding RKR, you'll always have an Adom7sus4 resolving to Adom7. Put that string 7 change on LKL2 and you have the option of an A6 or A7.

This is a can of worms, but don't forget about compensators to sweeten your chords, some are essential, some are just nice to have. OK worms, start posting.

Lane Gray · Post by **Lane Gray** » 6 Mar 2013 7:11 pm

John, your G# compensators: why is it not redundant to have them on both the A pedal and the E# lever?

Richard Sinkler · Post by **Richard Sinkler** » 6 Mar 2013 7:15 pm

Do they make compensators that will compensate for my lack of ability to play this thing?

Jim Hoke · Post by **Jim Hoke** » 6 Mar 2013 7:56 pm

I thought that being a performing musician was already a compensator. I was hoping, at least......

Dickie Whitley · Post by **Dickie Whitley** » 6 Mar 2013 8:41 pm

John McClung · Post by **John McClung** » 7 Mar 2013 9:53 am

Lane, that's an excellent question!

I first had them on just the F lever. Why? First I get the A and B pedal tuned to a perfect beatless A chord...then tune the F lever to be in tune for an A+F major chord, 3 frets up from open... In open position, the G# strings were pleasingly in tune, though flat, as 3rds in the open E...in A+F C# major chord, they're the 5ths, and too flat for me to tolerate, so the F lever sweetens them with a tiny pitch raise.

Over time, though, especially in session work with producers who were true musicians with great ears, it was noticed that those 3rd and 6th strings also need raising slightly for a C#m chord with just pedal A. So they're there too.

I'm soon going to add a compensator lowering string 1 with A pedal. I tune string 1 to make a perfect B chord with strings 1-2-5. But on string 5 using A pedal, that F# on top is too sharp, just like it is with the C pedal, and many of us flatten string 1 with C pedal for in tune unisons.

It never ends! No wonder some players just tune everything to 440 and learn to live with sourness everywhere!

Russ Sedam · Post by **Russ Sedam** » 9 Mar 2013 1:40 pm

Thanks for that explanation John. As a newbie to pedal steel it's been frustrating that I can't tune to get all my chord voicings to sound good, particicularly my minor chords. I've got to get these comps added to my Mullen asap! Also, the discussion regarding the raises on 1 & 2 in combination with the A & B pedals is something I haven't explored yet. Going to check that out.

John McClung · Post by **John McClung** » 11 Mar 2013 2:41 pm

Russ, I never use raises on 1 and 2 with the pedals. If you find a good use for both together, let me know!

Lane Gray · Post by **Lane Gray** » 11 Mar 2013 3:57 pm

John, if Sinkler or Mickey Adams pops in with a link to it, one of Mickey's tutorials combined the 1&2 raise (P0 on my guitar) with the B pedal. I found it the only instance in which its residing on a pedal posed a problem