Tuning problem on Emmons push-pull

Arthur Dickerson · Post by **Arthur Dickerson** » 19 Feb 2013 9:28 am

i have an emmons push-pull from the late 70's or early 80's. recentlr i have had the following problem:
When I tune to g# i tune it open first with no pedal just to get clos. Then I depress the b pedal and tune the a note again with the tuning knobs. When I let go of the pedal and go back to check the g# it is now flat and i have to go with my wrench and tune the open g# back up to pitch. I check the aA with the pedal down again and it is right on the button.
Fast forward a day. My pedal down A note is perfect but my open g# is flat. At first I would start from scratch(tuning opon g# at tuning ped, tuning A note with pedal down at tuning peg and lastly tuning g# pedal up with the tuning wrench) When I would tune the g# at the tuning peg first, the A with the pedal down would always be sharp and onc I got that I would have to go back with the wrench and bring the open G# back up to pitch.
Now I just check to make sure the A note withe pedal down is to pitch (which it always is) and then just tune my g# with the wrench. I've got plenty of screw left but it seems like eventually I'll run out.

It can't be my tuning peg right because both would be flat. something must be slipping besides my ability to figure things out
any body got suggestions . I'm open and interested

Jody Dickerson

chris ivey · Post by **chris ivey** » 19 Feb 2013 9:54 am

tune A with pedal down at tuning peg. release pedal and tune G# at the allen screw. shouldn't ever change unless bellcrank (or collar) is slipping on round cross shaft. tighten that set screw.

Jerry Overstreet · Post by **Jerry Overstreet** » 19 Feb 2013 9:54 am

Hopefully the push/pull experts will post some ideas for you, but 'til then 2 things to check.

Make sure your open tuning screw at the right end plate is not loose and backing off causing your open note to be flat.

Also check that the bell crank isn't slipping on the cross shaft.

[guess me and chris were posting at the same time.]

Tim Greene · Post by **Tim Greene** » 19 Feb 2013 10:34 am

Check the return spring on that string under the guitar.It may not have enough tension to hold the string at proper pitch. But most likely is a bell crank that needs tightened up.

Sid Hudson · Post by **Sid Hudson** » 19 Feb 2013 10:36 am

Call Billy Knowles at "Steel Guitar East".

He still works one day a week at the Emmons factory.

Great at what he does.

Dave Grafe · Post by **Dave Grafe** » 19 Feb 2013 10:59 am

Is the string lining up properly across the changer finger (bridge) or is it slightly off-center? When this happens the finger often cannot return fully to the rest position with similar results to those you are experiencing.

The other possibility would be a slipping collar on the pull-rod or a conflict with the mechanics for another move on the G# string.

Lane Gray · Post by **Lane Gray** » 19 Feb 2013 2:49 pm

Arthur, you're doing it wrong. Read the sticky post at the top of this forum, it explains how to tune a push-pull

Tony Glassman · Post by **Tony Glassman** » 19 Feb 2013 3:09 pm

- turn the guitar over and loosen the collars et screw on the offending raise rod.

- now tune the open string to G# at the tuning key.

- tune the changer finger manually by: pushing the changer raise finger forward until it stops against the body to " A"......then let the finger release to neutral and tune to G# at the. endplate

- if it is not returning accurately, check that the lower return string is tight enough to hold the raise finger at neutral. Do not over tighten that spring as it will make your lowers hard
to push

- last, tighten the collar set screw on the pull rod & leave just a touch of slack (1/16" or so)

Lane Gray · Post by **Lane Gray** » 19 Feb 2013 3:13 pm

Tony, he was tuning the G# at the keyhead.
I'm not sure he needs to mess with the underside at all, just follow the right process

Tony Glassman · Post by **Tony Glassman** » 19 Feb 2013 3:21 pm

Lane, It sounds as if he's doing it right. He's tuning the open string to G sharp at the tuning key just to get close. Then he is tuning with the pedal depressed, using the tuning key, to A. Then he is releasing the pedal and tuning at the endplate to G#.

It never hurts to be set it up correctly. That way you know it has enough travel to accommodate the change. The beauty of the P/P changer is that it can be set up visually. Once you are sure it is working right then, you can look for probs outside of the changer (e.g.rods,bell cranks, etc.)

Bobby Bowman · Post by **Bobby Bowman** » 19 Feb 2013 3:23 pm

It's probably the roller nut. Most guitars have this same problem. Raises come back flat and lowers come back sharp.
It's very common and there seems to be little that will remedy the problem. Just try to live with it and use bar controll when playing above the open position.
If the string is a little flat, exert a small amount of bar pressure or pull the bar a fraction to your right for single note applications.For just about everything else,,,use bar waggle to compensate.
Mind you, all of this advice is subject to varients and different opinions. JUst try to find what works for you and go with that.
BB

Lane Gray · Post by **Lane Gray** » 19 Feb 2013 4:00 pm

Oops. I'm the one not reading. Sorry about that.
If the G# keeps going flat and the A is unchanged, I'd suspect that the open note cap screw is backing out: I'd think about removing the screw and putting on a couple wraps of plumber's tape (since I don't recall the name of the red stuff Emmons painted on the screws), since that sounds easier than replacing the finger. Or swap the screw with the one from string 9

Lynn Stafford · Post by **Lynn Stafford** » 19 Feb 2013 4:31 pm

Tony Glassman wrote:It never hurts to be set it up correctly. That way you know it has enough travel to accommodate the change. The beauty of the P/P changer is that it can be set up visually. Once you are sure it is working right then, you can look for probs outside of the changer (e.g.rods,bell cranks, etc.)

I'd do as Tony suggests in his initial post, just to be sure the set up is correctly working as it should, then go from there.

Arthur Dickerson · Post by **Arthur Dickerson** » 19 Feb 2013 6:38 pm

thanks everybody,

I just love this forum. I come back from work and there are all these great suggestions waiting for me. This place is great.

I had just had a string pop and all this happened after I replaced it. So I'm going to start with checking how the string lines up on the changer. (thanks for that Dave) I hope it's that 'cause I can get to it more easily.
Jerry I hadn't really considered the possibility of the screw itself not fitting right That doesn't sound too hard to check out. But Chris I hope I don't have try your other suggestion - going underneath to tighten that set screw (although that doesn't seem like the end of the world)

However I imagine if I get to that point I'll just get it turned over and follow your process, Tony. It seems pretty much taking control of all the variables. And Tim you also mentioned the spring. As far as the spring, I'm hoping it's not that, just 'cause I always hate to mess with stuff I don't normally mess with. And I'm thinking that maybe since it goes flat without me touching it after I'v tuned it, maybe it isn't the problem. I'll check it last.

And Lane thanks for the advice about the tape on the screw. I was wondering how I would fix that if that turned out to be the problem. I would not like to alter the changer if I didn't have to. I want some of that red stuff though. That sounds cool.

I hate to tell everybody this, but I won't be able to try any of this until about two weeks. I have this steel at a little place in the country and I won't be back for a couple of weeks. I sure wish I had had internet when I was over there this weekend.

Again thanks to everybody.

Jerry Overstreet · Post by **Jerry Overstreet** » 19 Feb 2013 7:04 pm

No problem Arthur. I had the problem with the screws backing out on my old P/P back when. When the finger returned from raise, I guess the screw threads were worn so that contact caused it to turn a little bit. I used some sort of goo on it to tighten up the threads, can't remember what.

Nowadays, I use blue loctite for split screws etc. The blue stuff lets the parts be removable yet provide a good thread filler after setting up.

Another product called Threadmate is the best, but it's not available everywhere.

Hope you get the issue solved whether it be that one or something else. P/P's are great sounding and unique instruments.

Arthur Dickerson · Post by **Arthur Dickerson** » 19 Feb 2013 7:36 pm

You said it. And shoot even if what Bobby said is the case and it can't ever be fixed like I want I will still love paying this guitar---even if I'm having to be tuning all the time.

richard burton · Post by **richard burton** » 19 Feb 2013 10:01 pm

If the string is not lowered at all, you could screw in the tuning screw (for the lowers) until it very lightly touches the changer.

This would override any problems with the lower return spring not having enough tension, so you wouldn't have to mess with the underside.

As I say, this will only work if the string is not lowered

Tony Glassman · Post by **Tony Glassman** » 20 Feb 2013 6:45 pm

The OEM Emmons tuning screws are coated with something that is called "Nylok" and the screws can be ordered new from Emmons.

I've used blue "Loc-tite" on them before. I usually apply it liberally to both the screw and hole threads and let them dry separately, rather then locking them together. It fills in the worn threads for a while.

I've never used plumber's Teflon tape before. I always thought it's function was to prevent water leakage between threads rather than adding friction to hold them together. (I could be wrong about that though).

Tuning the changer described in my above post is actually pretty straightforward.......about 20 min to do.

Arthur Dickerson · Post by **Arthur Dickerson** » 20 Feb 2013 8:12 pm

Thanks Tony and Richard. I got all these things to try and I can't wait to try them. Two weeks and I'll know.

Lane Gray · Post by **Lane Gray** » 20 Feb 2013 10:12 pm

Right, Tony. But it does it by filling in the threads, and it kinda migrates and squishes.
Exactly the sorts of properties that would come in handy here.

Arthur Dickerson · Post by **Arthur Dickerson** » 4 Mar 2013 1:26 pm

Hey y'all
The teflon tape did the trick, although I did get some Loc-tite as a backup. Thanks everybody.

Robert Daniels · Post by **Robert Daniels** » 4 Mar 2013 6:51 pm

I had the same problem on my student PP. A good way to see if the screw is turning is to leave your allen wrench in the screw and operate the pedal several times. You will see the allen wrench turn! I fixed mine with Loctite, though I may send it off to Mike Cass for a new finger if it becomes a problem. My screw is noticeably loose in the finger. This girl has been played a lot.

Speaking of my last date...

Craig A Davidson · Post by **Craig A Davidson** » 5 Mar 2013 1:45 am

One other thing could be that when raising string 5 it is going to far before it stops therefore pulling on the changer and making string 6 go flat. I had that on my Emmons and solved it by resetting the stop screw for string 5.

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