Playing with Keyboard ?

Allan Thompson · Post by **Allan Thompson** » 30 Dec 2002 10:53 am

Here is another question for you guys, again no tuning war please. How many of you who tune the beats out have had to change your tuning to straight up to play with a keyboard either in the studio or on stage.

Ken Byng · Post by **Ken Byng** » 30 Dec 2002 1:43 pm

Alan - I've always tuned my main root strings to 440. The Yamaha piano in our band is tuned to A = 438. Doesn't cause a problem to my ear

Eric West · Post by **Eric West** » 30 Dec 2002 2:11 pm

Never, except for playing with a Yamaha Mini Grand,( Helpenstil, or other "stringed pianos"). Used to have to sneak into the club and retune the piano in his case. It was horrible. Seems that if it is not tuned right to begin with, ( which is wasn't) that the whole thing warps and will never tune right. I don't think they make them anymore. Can't say I've played with that many "fender Rhodes'" but I've heard them pretty beat to hell.

A lot of tuning problems ( I read the previous thread) are caused by inconsistent pedal raises. Oh, they are OK when tested, but when actually *playing* they aren't getting pushed as hard, or released as quickly. Also, fret mashing guitar players will cause you a lot of grief.

In my case, I am better off, serenity wise, if I am playing weeknd gigs. Seems my ear gets a lot more sensitive after 3 or 4 nites of playing. After two or three straight weeks, I can get downright buggy.

I tried "tempered tuning" years ago, but I found that I play out of the main four positions ( Open, pedals down, E's and B's raised, and E's lowered, that it would drive you nuts coming up with a "tempered tuning" that would change for all four. I do constantly "adjust" the bar, unconsiously, much as a fiddle player does, as it's an "ear instrument" thought I always fight sharp playing guitar players or flat singing vocalists. I can tell if I've been working with a fret mashing guitar player, because after a full week of playing with one, setting my steel dead level, my bar, free rolling will stop a very small distance up on the three, five, and eight frets. ( Takes at least a week to make a "dent".) I refuse to tune sharp to accommodate them. I just hope I'm not looking at more than a month.

There are two fiddle players I have in my mind. Both of some accomplishment. One plays soley to what he hears. One plays with as many open strings as he can, staying "true to himself". I like working with the latter.

Also, doing an ending "ad lib response" behind a guitar playing lead man, I was once told that I was playing flat. I thought about it, and told him, that I was sorry, and I'd fotgotten that he was singing to his guitar tuning.....

Then there are horn players....

One in fact I played with in the 80s was always a joy to work with ( Ron Barnes). He was the best in the area thought, and have yet to meet his equal. Any key, any chord.

ALSO. Stage placement.

I've found that sitting next to the bass player is the best, with him ( or her), a lead singer/rythym player in between myself and the guitar player, between myself and the keys. OR with the keyboard player next to me opposite the whole "show". You'll find, listening to recordings, that what drives you nuts on stage at 90db volume, doesn't even show up 20 feet away OR in the mix of a recorded set.

A lot also depeds on what type of "pitch" you have. In my case, the best I can come up with is "acquired perfect pitch". Oh, I can whistle a C note within 10 cents, but it becomes less acute when I'm not playing all the time, like I mentioned. When I am, I'm downright "hard to live with". It also, like rythym is something you're going to have to develop a *personal security* about, or people are flat going to rip you up. No machine or "tuning method" is going to make your *personal tone center* something you're willing to "fight" to defend.

Nothing like that will give you a "firmer handshake" either.

Dunno if this is helpful, and I know I should be practicing. In fact my playing would be better if that's all I did....

EJL

[This message was edited by Eric West on 30 December 2002 at 02:15 PM.]

Ricky Davis · Post by **Ricky Davis** » 31 Dec 2002 2:39 am

I tune the beats out and have never had to change my tuning in the studio.....and I record with Floyd Domino and Earl Poolball.
Ricky

Miguel e Smith · Post by **Miguel e Smith** » 31 Dec 2002 8:39 am

I tune my higher E on the E9 to 440 and then just tune the rest of the guitar where it sounds in tune with itself in several pedal and bar positions. "If" a piano is tuned well, there shouldn't be many problems. "If" an electronic keyboard is in correct working order, still shouldn't be a problem. (I play keys also so both work together in the studio a lot).

Just a little note about tuning though...with so many forces that affect a pedal steel tuning (i.e.; bar pressure from one end to the other, bar slant, temperature, altitude, etc...)sometimes you have to be aggressive with 'forcing' things into pitch by finding the best bar pressure or slight angle. I once sat behind a steel that The Big E had just played...it was terribly out of tune but yet he played it beautifully. He forced it into submission (but I still like to get it as close as possible as it means less work).

chas smith · Post by **chas smith** » 31 Dec 2002 10:40 am

You can suggest to the mixer, that the steel guitar "needs a lot of meter", that way the steel drowns out the out of tune piano, and the world is a better place.....

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 31 Dec 2002 11:10 am

I've never found it to be a problem. People are used to the out-of-tune sound of an electronic keyboard. You can tune straight up and be as out as the piano is, or you can tune your guitar truer than that.

Either way works. Buddy Emmons tunes ET and he sounds in tune with everyone. Paul Franklin tunes JI and he sounds in tune with everyone.

On an electronic keyboard, the major thirds are exactly 400 cents wide. A "true" major third is 386 cents wide. The bottom line for playing thirds in tune is that you cannot exceed those boundaries. A third that is less than 386 cents will sound obviously flat. A third that's greater than 400 cents will sound obviously sharp. The ear resolves anything in between.

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Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 31 Dec 2002 11:19 am

I've never had a big problem with tuning, and it is my own theory that "playing in tune" is a skill second only to "playing" in the first place! I try to match the other instruments that are there, regardless of how I sound. As an example, I have done sessions where the steel (by itself) sounds a little out (to me), but when the twin parts come along, and I'm playing along with the guitar, keyboard, or fiddle, it sounds "dead on". I can't explain that, other than I try to just "blend" well with whatever instruments I'm playing along with. As long as the discrepancy isn't too great, this works.

Sometimes, though, I feel guilty trying to tell someone else how to tune, or even tuning their instrument for them. But sometimes, it's got to be done. There are some great players with "lousy ears".

Bill Llewellyn · Post by **Bill Llewellyn** » 2 Jan 2003 8:42 am

Does anyone know where singers typically resolve their thirds, particularly with today's predominance of even tempered tuning? I wonder if they tend to stay ET or if they subconsciously pull their thirds to JI.

Earnest Bovine · Post by **Earnest Bovine** » 2 Jan 2003 9:33 am

Does anyone know where singers typically resolve their thirds

To hear vocal Just Intonation, listen to choirs of eastern European folk music, or some African groups. Where there is no instrumental accompaniment, many of these folk traditions tend to "tune out the beats" and it really sounds different from what we are used to hearing.

David Doggett · Post by **David Doggett** » 2 Jan 2003 9:52 am

All opera and orchestral vocal music is sung to just intonation. Except for percussion instruments, there are no tempered instruments normally played with an orchestra. Pianos are put on stage only for the occassional piano concerto.

Singer guitarists commonly tweak their guitar for the key they will sing the next song in. They are probably singing and playing close to JI. When the whole band is tempered, it's not clear what the singer does. Someone should put a meter on a few singers to find out. Also, I wonder what a singer pianist does?

Gene Jones · Post by **Gene Jones** » 2 Jan 2003 9:56 am

I played with a Rhodes "many a mile" and I never had a problem with it...of course, it may have been because of the musicianship of the guy playing it! www.genejones.com [This message was edited by Gene Jones on 02 January 2003 at 09:57 AM.]

Marc Friedland · Post by **Marc Friedland** » 2 Jan 2003 11:22 am

Alan, Usually I only read posts about tuning for entertainment value, but this time I feel inspired to chime in. In live performances I don't usually have to concern myself with playing the steel in tune to the keyboard, because 95% of the time I am also the keyboard player, and I although I can go back & forth pretty well, I can't play them both at the same time. In a studio environment, I like listening and playing the psg to the keyboard track, if there is one, becasue that's typically not going to be retuned and played over. I've had occasions where I tried my best to fit in well with the guitars & vocals that seemed out of tune, and later those guitars & vocals were redone, and the the steel didn't sound too good. Unfortunately, I still have a copy of the tape to prove it. When playing along to the keyboard when recording, I usually play my normal tuning method, and make subtle bar adjustments, when I can hear them called for. In a live playing situation, it depends alot upon who I'm playing with, and how well they tune or sing in key. I remember playing with one band where the lead singer was quite good, but when he played his rhythm guitar it was usually with a capo on, and not tuned perfectly, so he often sang sharp at those times. Since, the most important part of my job (in my opinion) is to make the lead singer sound as good as possible, and for the song and the band's performance to work as well as possible, I tried my best to adjust as well as I could on the fly. Now I perform regularly with a band, where the lead singer is very good at staying on pitch, even with out of tune instruments behind him. In this case I'll play what I feel is "in tune" and sort of force the guitar player to adjust to me. It seems to be working well at this point. He goes back & forth between 3 or 4 guitars, and we don't have the luxury of any sound tech assistants, so sometimes one of his guitars will go out while sitting there. To simplify my tuning method, it's basically the E's & B's just slightly, if at all, sharp of 440, the G#'s about 438, the C#'s on the B strings about 439, the E to F's about 436, and most everything else pretty close to straight up 440. -- Marc

Jim Palenscar · Post by **Jim Palenscar** » 2 Jan 2003 8:37 pm

When I play by myself I tune out the beats. When I play with a keyboard or record- it's pretty much straight up except the G#'s which are a titch flat

Johan Jansen · Post by **Johan Jansen** » 3 Jan 2003 4:26 am

Just tune up your guitar as you always do, AND PLAY BY EAR!!
Correct yourself with bar-pressure and bar-movenment not by vibrating or barshiver, to mislead the tuning (Yes, this is done a lot

)

JJ

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