Why are the individual notes of a chord are not in tune?

admin · Post by **b0b** » 7 Dec 2012 12:30 pm

The Peterson tuning is configured to tune the open strings. If you place the bar at the 5th fret, it will not give you correct readings. The C# note is the A pedal on the 5th string, but at the 5th fret it's on the 6th string with no pedals.

Since the tuner is configured for just intonation of open strings, all bets are off if you try to measure notes at barred frets.

Alan Brookes · Post by **Alan Brookes** » 26 Dec 2012 4:32 pm

It's that old problem, Just Intonation, rearing its ugly head once again.

http://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtopi ... emperament
See the discussion above.

In days of yore, everything was played in Amin or C, and instruments were designed to play in just those two keys. Why ? Because the frequency of the notes changes with each key. For instance, the C in the key of G is not the same note as the C in the key of F, or the C in the key of C.

You see it's impossible to tune an instrument to play in every key. During the 1700s they came up with Equal Temperament, where the keys are averaged, and slightly out of tune in every key. Every keyboard instrument comes tuned like that. Along comes a steel guitarist, and decides to tune his guitar in natural temperament, so that the open strings are tuned perfectly with each other, and he's immediately out of tune with the keyboard players.

Fortunately, the steel guitarist applies vibrato, and the amount of his vibrato encompasses both the natural and equal temperament tunings. The answer to your problem is, keep your bar moving.

Bob Hoffnar · Post by **Bob Hoffnar** » 26 Dec 2012 5:13 pm

Fortunately, the steel guitarist applies vibrato, and the amount of his vibrato encompasses both the natural and equal temperament tunings. The answer to your problem is, keep your bar moving.

Alan, I don't know if you meant this as a joke or not but for anybody reading it is absolutely false. If you are not in tune without vibrato you are not in tune with vibrato.

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 27 Dec 2012 6:50 am

Roger Rettig wrote: I get my 'E's (or Cs) in tune and use my ears from there.

I think you and Ray on really on the same page.

That's what all us old timers did, and it's still the standard and accepted way of doing things. Digital tuners can be helpful, but they're no "magic bullet". If you can't tell with your ear when something is "in" or "out", you have a serious handicap when it comes to playing this instrument. With the popularity of digital tuners growing, some players have the idea that all you really need is a good tuner to take care of tuning problems, but that's simply not the case.

Alan Brookes · Post by **Alan Brookes** » 27 Dec 2012 10:27 am

Bob Hoffnar wrote:...Alan, I don't know if you meant this as a joke or not but for anybody reading it is absolutely false. If you are not in tune without vibrato you are not in tune with vibrato.

No, not meant as a joke, Bob. Jerry Byrd was once quoted, when asked how much vibrato to add, that you should imagine you were using an eraser. The very act of applying vibrato means that you're oscillating between being flat, on the note, and then sharp, several times a second. If you use an eraser you move the rubber end about 5 mm. 5 mm is greater than the variation between the position of the frets in tempered or natural scales, so in applying vibrato you are as much in tune in both scales. In fact, since most steel guitarists aren't looking at the neck, they're just playing by ear, they will automatically tend towards what sounds better when taken together with the rest of the band.

Bob Hoffnar · Post by **Bob Hoffnar** » 27 Dec 2012 12:05 pm

Being as I never met or worked with Jerry Byrd I am not qualified to speak for him. From listening to him and reading his book, interviews and letters I would say you have misinterpreted his statement about tuning.

As long as we are on the subject.
This is an absolutely ridiculous statement also:

Along comes a steel guitarist, and decides to tune his guitar in natural temperament, so that the open strings are tuned perfectly with each other, and he's immediately out of tune with the keyboard players.

Most all the greatest players ever of the steel guitar tune "natural" and sound fine with keyboard players. All the steel you hear on recordings that where recorded before digital tuners would be included in the "natural" group as well as most everybody that gets paid enough to make a living that has been working after the invention of digital tuners.

Donny Hinson has got it exactly right in his last post.

Chris Lucker · Post by **Chris Lucker** » 27 Dec 2012 12:14 pm

Alan, I never thought of using vibrato by playing the note and rolling it flat and sharp. I try to hit the note and roll flat and then back to the note. I try to avoid sharp.

Vincent Lenci · Post by **Vincent Lenci** » 27 Dec 2012 1:44 pm

Sometimes my guitar will tune just right at the "E"s at 440 other times at 449. But it's wicked to tune when taking it out in colder weather!

Alan Brookes · Post by **Alan Brookes** » 27 Dec 2012 5:01 pm

Bob Hoffnar wrote:...Donny Hinson has got it exactly right in his last post.

Yes, I don't think there's any inconsistncy in what you, I or Donny wrote. I've never used an electronic tuner, by the way. I don't own one. I tune entirely by ear and I play by ear without giving the fingerboard more than a passing glance.
But then, I'm no Jerry Byrd or Buddy Emmons.

Allen Kentfield · Post by **Allen Kentfield** » 29 Dec 2012 10:04 am

Hans,
The tuning thing is a real can of worms. A steel player has got to develop his sense of relative pitch. Tune your E (on E9) 1/2hz sharp to the tuner and tune your open major chords (by ear)in order: B, C#, Dma7 and A7. The A should end up at 440. Winnie Winston's harmonic tuning method should be studied, as well as music theory, and the circle of fifths.

CrowBear Schmitt · Post by **CrowBear Schmitt** » 29 Dec 2012 11:52 am

the peterson tuner or any other tuner basically is used to tune at fret 0 or frets 4 Yes ! 4 /5/7/12 w: harmonics
once you put the bar on the frets, forget about referring back to the tuner
let your ears be your guide

Alan Brookes · Post by **Alan Brookes** » 30 Dec 2012 11:24 am

Have you thought of tuning to a Xylophone ?
I have a set of xylophone slats laid out in C6 tuning.

Sam Stewart · Post by **Sam Stewart** » 16 Feb 2013 7:17 am

Has anyone considered that your ears are integrally connected to you nasal passages? Tune with your ears when your have clogged sinuses or a cold which has your head clogged. Clean out your nasal passages and then check your tuning. Ah ha!!! A tuner does not have this problem, It is consistant. I am not advocating a tuner is the way just pointing out a fact of nature.

admin · Post by **b0b** » 16 Feb 2013 8:52 am

Alan Brookes wrote:Have you thought of tuning to a Xylophone ?
I have a set of xylophone slats laid out in C6 tuning.

My marimba is tuned ET to A=442 Hz. It sounds fine when played with an A=440 Hz band, probably because its tone is unique and it doesn't sustain. I would never tune my steel guitar to it, though. When I listen with a critical ear, I hear that the thirds are sharp and the chords have those beats that you hear in any keyboard instrument.

Vincent Lenci · Post by **Vincent Lenci** » 16 Feb 2013 11:15 am

Maybe the reason may singing sounds bad when
I cover my ears and hold my nosed and a friend covers my mouth!

Niels Andrews · Post by **Niels Andrews** » 16 Feb 2013 11:40 am

I love threads like this, they serve no purpose, they go no where, they are filled with emotion and absolutes. Really enjoyable while taking a break, keep up the good work.