The Rise of the 8 string and Fall of the 10 string PSG!

[Lane Gray]

Would you pick-block or palm-block, Alan?

[Richard Sinkler]

I tried nose blocking once, but found the nose better for picking.

[Jack Stoner]

I can see the frustration for a newbie, but give it time and it will come around. I played 6 string lap steel and then went to Lead and Bass for 15 years. When I first got a Pedal Steel (a double 10 Fender 2000) the two chromatic strings (1 and 2) were "foreign" to me when I started. It wasn't until I got Neil Flanz's Sho-Bud lick album (33 1/3) that I learned some licks and uses for the 1st and 2nd string. That opened it up for me and I'd be lost without them now.

[Tommy Boswell]

For all the jokesters in this thread about 1-stringed instruments, I once heard an amazing performance on a 1-stringed African folk instrument called a diddley bow, played by blues guitarist Scott Ainslie. It can be done.

[Joseph Meditz]

When I took lessons with him, Jim Palenscar forced me to learn the harmonic strings. It's empowering because so many times the desired note is right under your hand.

[Mike Perlowin]

If I didn't have the 2 chromatic strings I couldn't play the word "wish" in my version of the song. I also couldn't play the syllable "Diff" in the word Difference.

[Mike Perlowin]

For all the jokesters in this thread about 1-stringed instruments, I once heard an amazing performance on a 1-stringed African folk instrument called a diddley bow, played by blues guitarist Scott Ainslie. It can be done.

Here's another recording on a similar instrument. The artist was a skid row homeless person who busked with his instrument in Los Angeles in 1960. Somebody heard him and recorded him, and then he disappeared.

This is a real bluesman who lived the life. Not a middle class white guy who learned the tradition from listening to records.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UACDi5MuqrM

[b0b]

In my opinion, the first two strings are more important to E9th styles than the 7th and 9th strings. Modern instruments lower the middle G# to F# on a lever, and U-12 players have been working their way around the missing 9th string for decades.

If I needed to play E9th on an 8-string, I'd leave out the 7th and 9th strings. The first two strings are much more important.

[Mark van Allen]

While in general I'd agree with you on this, b0b, I think it depends somewhat on stylistic intention. The top 2 are fundamental to the pretty single-note and harmony fills, chimey minor stuff, chord extensions and hot 70's palm-blocking styles that are so iconic to E9 sounds, but the 7th and 9th strings lend availability to get rock, blues, and swing stuff that some players might prefer. I really need it all, and obviously the deep thinkers in the evolutionary design of the tuning felt the same way.
There has been some fantastic playing with just 8 for sure- I really recommend Sneaky Pete's "The Legend and the Legacy" for some insight into how much can be gotten out of 8 strings. But I'll agree that the caveat should be "works for some" not, "throw out the distraction of these goofy extra strings".

When looking at the E9 tuning as stacks of triads, the top 2 do seem out of place at first glance. It takes some listening, exploration and especially historical review to even start to crack the amazing versatility and musicality embedded and available in this truly amazing tuning. It's evolved this way for many reasons.

I've been playing E9 for 35 years or so, and it still astounds me as a musical tool.

[Mike Perlowin]

Dale, try doing this: Press the A pedal so that strings 3,4,5,and 6 form a C# minor chord. Then ONE AT A TIME, pick stings 5,2,4,1,3, then back down 3,1,4,2,5. Let each string ring out a little as you pick the next one.

You can vary this be adding lowering the 2nd string to D or C#, adding the the E to F raise and making the chord major, or playing with the pedals up or down.

[Clete Ritta]

Mike's suggestion is a great place to start.
Here's an exercise in diatonic harmony, using a two-note scale, aka double stops:

[tab]
1 _______________________0_________
2 ________________0______0_________
3 ____________________________0____
4 ____________________0_______0____
5 ________0__0A___0___0A___________
6 _0__0B__0__0B____________________
7 ____0____________________________
8 _0_______________________________
9 _________________________________
10_________________________________[/tab]

This shows the relationship of the first two strings in a major scale, no bar necessary.
Play around with this for a while before you remove those top two strings!

Clete

[Stephen Dorocke]

more beautiful tones from one string>>
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f5smV8NbWiA

[b0b]

I first posted this a dozen years ago, but it's still relevant. The top two strings develop speed in every bar position. You can play these four-note scale fragment with just your thumb and one finger.

In this tab:

b means lower string 1/2 step
# means raise string 1/2 step
X means raise string 1 step

For the first one, you need to be able to raise your first and fourth strings, and lower your second string. Only the first 5 strings are shown, and the name of the note is under it.
[tab]F#_________1___________3___________4#__________6___________8________
D#___1___________3b__________4___________6___________8______________
G#____________1___________3___________4___________6___________8_____
E ______1___________3___________4#__________6#__________8___________
B __________________________________________________________________
e f g a f g a b g a b c a b c d b c d e

F#____________9#______________11______________13____________________
D#____9_______________11______________13____________________________
G#________________9_______________11______________13________________
E ________9#______________11#_____________13________________________
B __________________________________________________________________
c d e f d e f g e f g a [/tab]

This next one uses strings 1, 2, 4 and 5. Note that the pedal is down on string 5 for the whole exercise.
[tab]F#____________1___________3___________4#__________6___________8_____
D#______1___________3b__________4___________6___________8___________
G#__________________________________________________________________
E _________1___________3___________4#__________6#__________8________
B ___1X__________3X__________4X__________6X__________8X_____________
d e f g e f g a f g a b g a b c a b c d

F#_______________10______________11______________13_________________
D#_______10b_____________11______________13_________________________
G#__________________________________________________________________
E ___________10______________11#_____________13_____________________
B ___10X_____________11X_____________13X____________________________
b c d e c d e f d e f g [/tab]

[Dale Kath]

Thanks bOb, Clete and Mike,

More homework for tonight (and the next night)!

appreciate it!

Dale

[Chris LeDrew]

I knew hackles would rise with my comments. I mean no disrespect to the true players. Sometimes it's good to throw a fox into the henhouse, if you know what I mean!

This is calling trolling. It looks like you got the attention you were looking for.

Adding on to my initial comments, I took issue with you calling the 10-string E9 tuning "ill-conceived." Sure, 8-strings and 6-strings and every other combination are widely used. I'm not a snob when it comes to the amount of strings someone decides to use. But you're not talking about an 8-string configuration unto itself, but an 8-string in the absence of the two strings that you've deemed illogical. This is different than the Sneaky Pete tuning or anything else mentioned here since your first post. It can be easy to misconstrue my first post as an a judgemental overreaction, but without knowing your true intent - which was to raise hackles - I felt it necessary to point out that it's a bit presumptuous for a newer player to just dismiss the innovators of this tuning. As Herb said, if the nature of the original post was changed from "you" to "I," it would have read completely differently.

That's the problem with trolling threads. They go off the rails quickly because the intent of the thread is false in the first place. Most players around here are very polite, so the discussion usually finds a civil path no matter what the original intent.

[Dale Kath]

Ya know Chris,

I understood a forum is a place for individuals to express their opinions. I have looked at my first post, and I can see using the phrase "ill conceived tuning" was, well.... ill conceived. Most posters have informed me in a polite and friendly way, that although I do not have the talent to be a truly accomplished player, if I took the extra effort I might not find it so hard to play a 10 string after all. I wondered whether there were other players who "ignored" those top two strings. I got my answer. Not many, if any at all! I also thought if I am talking about the number of strings and the tuning of such, I am not attacking any human being. (which I will never do)

For all I knew, maybe others felt the same. I know better now.

Hey, did you ever notice that when you search your own posts in the address bar it ends with :egosearch:? Someone around here has a sense of humor!

Kind regards,
Dale

[John McClung]

Since we're on the topic of the top 2 strings here, thought I'd throw in my column that runs this month (Dec. 2012) in the "Steel Guitar Rag," newsletter published by the Southwest Steel Guitar Association (SWSGA), editor Denny Beaver.

One sidebar plug: DO attend their great show in Phoenix, Jan. 17-19, 2013. It's a big special 10th anniversary shindig. Great show, can't say enough good things about it. And do join the SWSGA and get this monthly newsletter for FREE!

The column shows both common and uncommon uses for the so-called "chromatic strings." You'll need the Franklin pedal and knee lever for a bit of it.

If anyone wants personal help with this, or any, topic, just contact me for Skype lessons. If you live in the Los Angeles area, we can get together live. I have just a couple of biweekly slots left.

Enjoy!

[Tom Wolverton]

When I was deriving my E9th 8-string copedent, I read and studied what others had done for quite a while. I tried playing my regular 10-string E9th with certain strings missing. Then I asked a few steel players that I respected this question: “If someone made you give up 2 strings from your E9th tuning, which 2 would you give up?” I got 2 answers, as I recall. Option #1: drop the bottom two strings (a Buddy Emmons approach, as I recall). Option #2: drop the 2 top strings.

I split the difference and dropped strings from top and bottom, i.e. 2 and 10. It sorta works. Key word: sorta. : ) I’ve been playing this tuning for about 9 months now and am starting to think I should have dropped the 9 and 10 strings and kept both on top. (Emmons 8-string style). One thing that can be done is to have a pedal or KL that drops the 2 low strings: E and F# down to D and E so you get back part of what you gave up.

[Alan Brookes]

Why doesn't the C6 tuning have a top two re-entrant strings ?

[Richard Sinkler]

Those of us that have a D on the first string, kind of do. If I had a 12 string, I would have the D on 1 and a B on 2, same intervals as the E9th.

[John McClung]

That's a good idea, Rich. I do have a 12-string C6, have high G at string 3, then D at string 2, and used to have F at string 1, but have it empty for now. That way I had a C-D-E-F-G major scale using re-entrant strings. Might try your B idea.

Where'd that term re-entrant come from? Good name. Chromatic is all wrong.

[Richard Sinkler]

I would also put the G back on mine on the 3rd string. That would really complete the C6th for me.

[Joe Gall]

Very interesting topic as I must admit that as a new player as well, I had a tough time with the first two strings as well. However, several months back I stumbled on to fitting #1 into the mix and pulling it with the LKL it is now my favorite lick to use because it sounds so nice!

With that said, I still can not seem to figure out exactly where and or how to incorporate #2 into the mix. No matter what it just does not seem to "go" with anything I attempt or try. It is frustrating because it's the only string left that I just can't seem to figure out. On my MSA Classic #2 is dropped with RKL and for the life of me if just does not fit in anywhere...

[Carl Mesrobian]

... I have come to the logical conclusion--- take off those 2 top strings to enjoy a frustration free playing session....

Don't you mean "challenging free" session? I'm a 6 string guitar player of over 45 years and find all kinds of cool stuff on string 1 and 2. I figure the tuning is like that for a reason, and I'm finding reasons. "Broken Wing" intro (grabbing note on string 1 instead of sliding up 2 on string 4), 7th, 6th voicings with levers. I'd rather toss 9 and 10, but just found cool stuff on there, too. "Satin Sheets" intro. I learned the diatonic scale beginning on string 8, and use string 1 for the 7th note - I believe many have learned it that way - practice, practice, practice