The Rise of the 8 string and Fall of the 10 string PSG!

[Richard Sinkler]

Jimbeaux said

How long do ya hafta play one of these things to have an opinion?

92 years ought to do it.

[Dale Kath]

Jim - your example of the setup of piano, supports. Notice how you easily flow upward in scale as you move up the keyboard? Now try that with a 10 string. B, E, G#, D#....... D#????? Where did that come from? You have a higher string before a lower string??

and the other Jim - not sure who Bill Hankey is. Googled him but don't recognize him as a relative

[Brett Lanier]

Dale, if you ever want to play any of the steel parts from popular music of the last fifty years, you will need to have those top two strings. And if you do learn to use them, you'll most likely find that they make the E9 tuning easier and more enjoyable to play.

[Pete Burak]

I have a Sierra 8-string with 5 pedals and 4 knee leevers.
It's an "S8U".
It's great fun to play!
I have used it on standard gigs and no one even noticed it was a different instrument from my 12 string steel that I usually play.
Funn Stuff!

My tuning is two stacks of G#-F#-E-B:
1=G#
2=F#
3=E
4=B
5=G#
6=F#
7=E
8=B

I lower string-4 from E to D# on a leever to get the missing D# as needed (also lowers string-7 E to D#, which puts me into B6th mode).
I raise string 8 from B to D on a leever to get the missing D as needed.

My 5 pedals are A-B-5-6-7.
LKL= E's>F's
LKV= B's>Bb
RKL= string8-B>D and string4-E>F#(my C-pedal when combined with A-pedal)
RKR= E's>Eb

[Barry Blackwood]

Dale, how about I cut those first two pesky strings off my steel? Will I then reach nirvana?

[Jerome Hawkes]

one of the greatest steel LPs of all time was done on an 8 string 2 pedal guitar - Jimmy Day's Golden Hits of the Steel Gtr.

If the purpose of you playing the steel is to duplicate the same off-the-record licks as the pros, then yes, you will be needing everything available. but I often wonder if this thinking is not what holds steel guitar back - everyone is chasing someone else's sound / style instead of finding what music is inside them. one of my favorite players to listen to is Basil Henriques with his antique Fender 1000, mainly because its different from the same old moves everyone does. Back in the early days, it seems every player wanted a unique sound/style - you could ID the player in the first few bars - now everyone complains we've become blandly interchangeable.

Even if you do hear a steel on record, its often played "slide style" with little pedal work. (did anyone happen to see the Martina McBride segment during the Macy's parade - i saw a ShoBud D-10 pedal steel in the band to which it was played entirely like a lap steel)...so one could say if you want to play the steel parts of todays music, you dont even need the pedals period....no more than the 2 basic anyway. You surely are not hearing "Touch My Heart" kick offs any longer that use every change on the guitar.

the fact is, you can play YOUR music on whatever set up you find best - i struggled with C6 until i started playing non-pedal steel, then i began to see where the music was - I'll hardly touch the pedals on C6 now...dont need em.

[Chris Brooks]

And yet some of us are not even satisfied with 10 strings! We have to go and put on a couple of extra strings at the bass end.

Inquiring minds want to know why!

(Because they're useful. And fun.)

Chris

[Herb Steiner]

I'd have no problem with Dale's post if he replaced all the plural pronouns ("you" meaning "all the steel players" reading his tome) with the personal pronouns "I/me" (meaning himself).

Whatever a beginning player wants to do with his own instrument is fine with me. It's his deck of cards and he can play solitaire till dawn with a deck of 51 for as long he wants. But when someone with little experience pontificates about what other players "should" do that conflicts with widely accepted protocol, thereby possibly leading other inexperienced players down the path to an unconventional and difficult task, it gives me pause.

For more on this topic, see the thread "How Long Do You Have To Play Pedal Steel Before You Can Have An Opinion?"

[Cliff Kane]

I agree with what's being said about the necessity of those top two string. When I started playing I didn't get what I could do with them and I ignored them until I eventually came around to using them and seeing them as much as any other part of the whole E9 tuning. Unfortunately I have been without my Emmons for a while, so I've been playing my Fender 1000. The 1000 is a great fun guitar with nice tone, really a good guitar. I do not miss the two strings on the C6 side so much (sans the low C and high D), probably because I was never that versed in C6 on my Emmons, but it's hard to have to do E9 on 8 strings. After playing 10 string E9, going to 8 is a real compromise in that you're going to have to give up something, either your top two, your bottom two, your middle D and F#, either way it's not the super E9 you get on 10. To pickup on what Jerome mentioned, Basil makes excellent use of the 1000. I believe he has his own brainchild A7, using a lot of the pedals.

[Dale Kath]

Barry, the best way to reach nirvana is to meditate (while playing your psg)

And Herb, I would have to be the Pope of Pedal Steel to "pontificate" Which I am not. I am just a journeyman musician learning slowly how to play the pedal steel. I use it to add "color" to my recordings. (Wackdaddyo at Reverbnation) I know a certain moderator who plays an 8 string wonderfully!
( yep, a little sugar so I don't get thrown off this forum - I have learned tons from the kind folks who utilize this site )

[Barry Blackwood]

If the purpose of you playing the steel is to duplicate the same off-the-record licks as the pros, then yes, you will be needing everything available. but I often wonder if this thinking is not what holds steel guitar back - everyone is chasing someone else's sound / style instead of finding what music is inside them.

Using that rationale, then every six-string guitar player is "chasing someone else's sound/style."

[Herb Steiner]

Dale
I know that b0b plays and 8-string guitar wonderfully. Hey, I can play an 8-string guitar wonderfully. In fact, I can play a 6-string steel guitar wonderfully. But I would never suggest to a beginner that he remove 20% of the standardized tuning, the tuning that 99.5% of the teaching materials available utilizes, to "let the music flow."

I would suggest, alternatively, that they buckle down to learn the modern day incarnation of the instrument... at least to the point that they might be able to see the wisdom that the collective genius of the masters of the past provided for us.

Your post, conversely, expressed frustration with the two re-entrant diatonic strings with the E9th tuning and suggested that other players do the same. That, IMHO, is doing a disservice to those players who WANT to learn the instrument conventionally.

Yes, I have my opinions, but those opinions are based on 48 years of playing the instrument... 44 professionally... and teaching the instrument in private lessons and published material for over 30 years.

If my choice of the word "pontificate" is incorrect, you do have my apologies.

[Cliff Kane]

We all agree that a good musician can get incredible music out of what ever instrument or configuration and tuning she/he chooses to use, and the steel guitar, the pedal steel guitar, is a very young instrument. Much older stringed instruments have been standardized in their number of strings and tunings for a very long time. I know that some people play 5 string basses, 7 string guitars, 5 string violins, etc., but those are exceptions and 4 string bases, 4 string violins, and 6 string guitars, along with their standard tunings, have been the accepted norm for decades, maybe hundreds of years. Are these things even debated in those circles? It seems that in our recent and very short history 10 strings has become the standard for the E9 or C6 pedal steel guitar. Some people use 12 strings for the hybrid universal, some for extended tunings, but 10 strings seems to be holding as the accepted norm. Not to get off the topic, but are there any ideas or theories about when an instrument and its tuning reach a point of stabilized maturation?

[John Scanlon]

I like 9s and 7s (major 7s and flat/dom. 7s) too much to take 'em off. Not just in chords, either, but also arpeggios and other licks and runs.

As far as their layout, which does make sense knowing the history of the instrument, I actually like it. I can more easily pick my way up through them than I could if they were all together.

[Dale Kath]

Seriously Herb, I believe you have "quashed" my argument for 8 over 10, with the most validity. For any beginners reading these posts, of course you would do best to heed Herb. Seriously!
Dale

[Willis Vanderberg]

I put my E 9th tuning on a ten string Eddie Alkaire E Harp. No pedals on it and it sounded just great. There is a little difference in blocking and so forth but all in all it was very interesting and a very unique sound.
In my own case, I can't imagine staying on my old six string lap steel after I heard folks playing on A-6th and later C-6th. I am thankful for the folks that came up with the added levers and pedals. Sometimes we need to think out side the box.
All this after seventy nine years, and sixty five of them trying to play this we call a steel guitar.

Old Bud

[Clete Ritta]

...how many of you 10 stringers spend the majority of your time playing taking extra effort muting those top 2 strings? ...

I spend the majority of my time taking extra effort to pick the strings I intend to play, and then muting them when their intended duration is reached. The top two strings are actually the easiest to avoid, by simply not placing the bar on them. Although I dont use them for chords quite as often as the other 8, I do use them for single and double stop note playing quite a lot. Picking with thumb and finger picks is all downstrokes, so the non-linear tuning actually makes it easier to do fast runs with thumb and finger on the top 4 strings. Also, there are other stringed instruments that have non linear tuning, such as banjo and ukelele, so it isn't all that unique.

Clete

[Lyle Bradford]

To me it would be crazy to not have the top 2 strings. I think a lot of variety comes from the harmonies and scales that can be made by having them.

[Tony Glassman]

I love the chromatic strings and they've always made sense to me.......but if you find them confusing initially, why not just simply take'em off of the S-10 until such time that you feel sufficiently comfortable to tackle them.

If after a year or two, you still feel the same way, sell the intact S-10, and have a custom S-8 built. If not, doing things the other way around may be more expensive as S-8's are tougher to sell.

[Dale Kath]

Tony, that is nearly what I ended up doing. I sat my 10 string to the side (selling it later this month) and found a pristine 8 string Pedalmaster. It is not a vintage instrument and was made with all the modern hardware. I don't think 8 stringers will be hard to sell as I have already had offers from others wanting me to sell it to them! I have been monitoring the "sell" sites for months and have been amazed how difficult it is to find a quality 8 string with modern hardware. Of course the pedal steel makers are going to base their operations on the marketplace.

[Jerome Hawkes]

Dale, from reading your posts, it may be a simple issue with your right hand technique. when i first started playing, i just did what i assumed was comfortable, as i had played banjo and travis style guitar before. when i did find a good player to give me a lesson, in the first 5 mins of hearing / seeing me play, he ran down a list of things i was doing wrong that were causing most of my problems. this was "fixed" with about 15 mins of explanation of the classic right hand technique and blocking, along with proper posture and body placement - it all works together. ** i'm not saying you can fix it in 15 mins, but you can at least learn what to look for**

assuming you are a new player - find a good area steeler and have them help you out. go to a regional steel jam even if you have to drive a few hours. dont think you can learn this instrument from watching YouTube videos.

you dont have to play a 10 string, if you get by with 8 and its more enjoyable, then happy picking.
I dont play a 10-12 string non-pedal just due to my experimenting with them and liking the simplicity of 6/8 strings + 1 tuning instead of trying to cram everything in 12 strings.

[Kevin Lichtsinn]

I like the sweet music that comes from a 10 stringer.....I'll keep mine and learn to play it. Nuthin' wrong with 8 if that trips you trigger.

[Tim Heidner]

Why do you need a special guitar? If you don't like the top 2 strings, just take 'em off.
I like them myself, and I've only been playing a couple of years.

[Dale Kath]

Yes Jerome, I learned long ago how to play six string guitar and piano on my own, but the pedal steel is another thing. I agree, a one on one instruction would do me heaps, but in the Detroit Metro area, there are no associations or instructors that I have found, yet. Basically, I am learning by the help of the friendly snaggle tooth guy from the old Mel Bay instructional DVD. And trying to play along with George Jones records. If I had a WayBack machine, I'd have it take me back to when I was 13, and ask for a pedal steel under the christmas tree

[Roual Ranes]

And they all need to be black mica.