12 String Universal players!

Don McClellan · Post by **Don McClellan** » 8 Nov 2002 3:44 pm

I've never understood the logic behind having the E string levers on seperate knees. You'll never use them both at the same time. And, the E levers (especially the E to Eb) are used more often then the others so why burden your left leg with them when your left leg is already very busy jumping from pedal to pedal (especially on a U12). I recomend E to F-RKR and E to Eb-RKL. That's my two cents worth and I'd like some change. Don

Mike Perlowin · Post by **Mike Perlowin** » 8 Nov 2002 11:54 pm

As some have suggested, having the E raises and lowers on seperate knees allows for a very smooth transition between them. It's not possibly to get the same sound when they are on the same knee.

But I submit that this is merely a duplication of the A pedal lick, in a different position. I see little reason to use that lick in that position instead of just moving the bar to a different fret and doing it with the pedal.

Perhaps on a straight E9 it makes sense to have the E raises and lowers on seperate knees, but I feel that on a universal it's better to have them both on the same knee.

Incidentally, most of us who have both changes in the left knee have the raise in the LKL and the lower on the LKR. J.D. Maness has the reverse. The lower is on the LKL and the raise is on the LKR. Some might think this is wrong, but it obviously works for him.

Chip Fossa · Post by **Chip Fossa** » 9 Nov 2002 7:19 am

LKL = 4,8,11 E-F; LKR = 4,8 E-D#;
RKR = 2, C#-D#; RKL [outside] = 2, C#-D.

FWIW, my other 2 knees are LKV = 4, E-F#;
RKL [inside] = 5,9 B-A#

Pete Burak · Post by **Pete Burak** » 9 Nov 2002 8:12 am

Here's a quote from another thread on the subject...

"Well here is my two cents worth. R-R lowers E's, L-R raises. There are some very cool things to do by going from the lower to the raise. If they are on the same leg this cannot be done in a fluid motion.
(Sorry Buddy)
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Johnny Cox
Zumsteel Tripleneck
E13th/E9th/Bb6th
(this week)

From the thread: http://steelguitarforum.com/Forum5/HTML/003848.html
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Getting back to this thread...
On my Emmons Push-Pull(my only steel for the first 18 years of my playing) raises dominate lowers, and when you enguage both E to F raise (LKL) and E to Eb lowers (RKR) AT THE SAME TIME, you can feel the stops of both changes, creating an interesting feel/touch.
All this stuff is really niether here nor there, just the way I came to learn to play.

If your steel is easy to make changes on, you could try it out for yourself.
I've tried alot of stuff I've read about over the years (lots of S12U ideas).

The other one that comes up alot is putting the traditional C6/B6 "Pedal 6" on a knee lever.
I've tried P6 on both RKL and LKR (keeping the E's to Eb's on RKR) based on recomendations of other S12U players who swear by it. I play alot of swing and go from the 1 to the 4 chord (or 5 chord) all the time using that change, so for me, locking into the 6th mode on that stuff and using a quick pedal change is where it's at (little to no leg motion required).
I don't like holding in the levers (did it for years though) or going back and forth from lever to lever to get the 1 to 4 change. But that's just me, and anyone elses way is equally fine (skin that cat baybee!).

Great thread!
Great to hear everyones expieriences! [This message was edited by Pete Burak on 09 November 2002 at 08:35 AM.][This message was edited by Pete Burak on 09 November 2002 at 08:37 AM.]

Pete Burak · Post by **Pete Burak** » 9 Nov 2002 9:49 am

Mike P.,
One thing that separates playing in the A+F position from the A pedal position is that you can raise the string 4 E another half step (F to F#) that the A pedal doesn't go to (unless you raise string 5, B to D somewhere).

Tom Gorr · Post by **Tom Gorr** » 9 Nov 2002 11:17 am

Pete,

Totally agree. Use it all the time like that. Its a sweet move.

Dennis Detweiler · Post by **Dennis Detweiler** » 9 Nov 2002 12:03 pm

Many good points/theories in these replies. Alot of opinions based on how you like to play it (personal style).
I lean toward having E to F and E to Eb on the same side (right knee). Holding the Eb's with the RKR is more relaxing than with an inside hold. I don't personally like the lever lock because I am constantly using E9th/B6th changes, depending on the song being played.
I also use the 9th string (B to D) change with the E to Eb lever with wide string (chord) grips and single note scales. This requires these knee lever changes to be on opposite ends of the guitar.
The fluid changes of the E to F to F# can also be gotten with the G# to F# knee lever, if you have this change on your guitar. I lower my 6th string (G# to F#) and my 10th string (G# to F#) with my LKR. Some very nice/fat low harmony can be played with the 10th string utilizing the G# to F# on the E9th tuning on a 12 string.
To each his own

Dennis

Bill Atwood · Post by **Bill Atwood** » 9 Nov 2002 2:07 pm

Thanks to all, a very interesting review. The responses to my question were equally as interesting and anything but conclusive!
23 responded
Raise 4&8 Lower 4&8

LKL LKR 8 inc.mine

LKL RKL 6

LKL RKR 5

RKL RKR 4

RKR RKL 1

Certainly not what I expected! Good reason to take the time.
Thanks again for the great thread.

John Sims · Post by **John Sims** » 12 Nov 2002 9:16 am

Mine is RKL for Eb & RKR for F

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Regards,

John

Steelin' is a way of life!

My PSG website-Carter SD-12-U, 8p/5k, Nashville 1000

Richard Gonzales · Post by **Richard Gonzales** » 13 Nov 2002 12:38 pm

Bill Atwood; I think you missed mine and also would like to know if all of these are with the Emmonds setup? Mine is a Day setup using RKR to lower the E and LKR to raise the E. I get a smoother transition going to and fro from the E.

Bill Atwood · Post by **Bill Atwood** » 13 Nov 2002 1:51 pm

Hi Richard, nice to hear from you again. You are absolutely right. I somehow omitted your set up. I believe the others were all Emmons on the pedals but can't be sure. Sorry about missing yours however that arrangement only adds to my confusion! I'm going to try it with both on the right knee and go from there. I actually considered switching to the Day setup long before I started wondering about the knee levers. Sooner or later it looks like I will try them all!

Van Ertel · Post by **Van Ertel** » 13 Nov 2002 6:05 pm

I like the MALONE setup.