Endplates/casting

Steven Welborn · Post by **Steven Welborn** » 18 Apr 2002 2:43 pm

this is one area of PSG building I've been in the dark about. Can anyone shed any light on this as to whats involved in having these things made? In the case of an individual designing and building a custom ax, I would guess this might be complicated and costly. Personaly, I believe ONE of the important factors that contribute to "that sound" of the original P/P's, is the caste aluminum endplates AND how the changer mounting components are connected to them(via a machine screw underneath). Would'nt be surprised if that "bell tone" was related to some degree. A lot of wisdom and thought went into the designing these tone beasts.

chas smith · Post by **chas smith** » 18 Apr 2002 9:28 pm

The old way was to have them cast, the new way is to have them machined from billet; or like the Dekleys, made from extrusion and bolted to corners, which is not a design I like or recommend.

It really helps to have a mill in the garage, otherwise, if you can do the program for a CNC milling machine, you could take that to a machine shop and have them run it. There is no simple solution if you are going to do it yourself.

Would'nt be surprised if that "bell tone" was related to some degree. A lot of wisdom and thought went into the designing these tone beasts.

In my opinion, and I have no shortage of them, every part of the guitar contributes to the overall tone. I think the "bell tone", you are referring to, actually comes from the picking technique of the player.

Bobbe Seymour · Post by **Bobbe Seymour** » 18 Apr 2002 10:34 pm

Chas., Bell tone from the player? From the player only? It might if the guys name is Bell or Bill.
Have you ever wondered why a bell is usually a casting? Bells arn't "punched out",or stamped, they are CAST, just like the end "CASTING" on a Emmons guitar. Is this the only reason the P-P sounds good? Of course not but it may not hurt either. There are seven reasons the p-p sounds the way it does, or really only one reason, but seven things that make it happen.
Remember,a casting will ring, a forging, stamping, will thunk!
Don't think too long on this,your thinking will turn into thunking!

I've never been in the movies, but my leg was in a cast once!

U. Billdum I. Pickkum III

Bobbe Seymour · Post by **Bobbe Seymour** » 18 Apr 2002 10:35 pm

Steve, you are on the right track!

C Dixon · Post by **C Dixon** » 19 Apr 2002 6:23 am

The late Ron Lashley (of Emmons') and I talked about this at length once. I seem to recall him saying his castings were made by a firm down in south Florida.

Later upon thinking about it, I pondered why he would have to go all the way there for them. Then I tried to get some made and found at least a plausible reason. Not many in this business. Would you believe I could NOT find a business in all of greater Atlanta (the largest city in the south), who made aluminum castings.

I find Bobbe's comments about castings versus milled or stamped quite interesting. Never thought about that before, but makes very good sense.

Also, ALL the sounds coming out of a steel does NOT come from the hands. In fact a LOT of it doesn't. True some does, but there is just too much evidence that the materials used in one brand as opposed to another have a decided difference in the sound of a given instrument. Example:

NO way anyone is going to make a Fender 1000 sound like a Sho-Bud. Buddy Emmons was asked on this forum why he did not continue to use his Sierra. His response was similar to this,

"I had a sound in my head. And could not get it out of the Sierra".

That is good enough for me.

God bless you all,

carl

chas smith · Post by **chas smith** » 19 Apr 2002 9:24 am

Bell tone from the player? From the player only? It might if the guys name is Bell or Bill. Have you ever wondered why a bell is usually a casting? Bells arn't "punched out",or stamped, they are CAST, just like the end "CASTING" on a Emmons guitar.

Well now, I completely agree that cast metal 'rings' more, and purer, than metal that has been extruded or forged, because the crystalline structure hasn't been crunched together. This is also why older cymbals sound better than new ones, they've been played and the internal structure of the metal has had time to relax. But one of the reasons bells are cast is because of the complicated shape.

We all know that different guitars sound different from each other. If the bell tone doesn't come from the player, then everyone who owns a push pull should sound like Buddy. I've got one and I sure don't.

Steven Welborn · Post by **Steven Welborn** » 19 Apr 2002 11:32 am

I was'nt using the bell tone discription because of something I hear when listening to Buddy, though it's certainly there as well(when playing his youknowwhats that is

), rather it's something that clearly jumped out at me and distinguished my '72 p/p from all the other steels I've owned or played. This is purely instrument related thing.

[This message was edited by Steven Welborn on 19 April 2002 at 12:33 PM.][This message was edited by Steven Welborn on 19 April 2002 at 12:34 PM.]

Glenn Austin · Post by **Glenn Austin** » 19 Apr 2002 11:51 am

Steve, If you're talking about that percussive attack, when you pick a note,. I think it has more to do with the changer fingers touching the body. What I've noticed about my p/p is that you don't have to be hitting the strings very hard to be getting a big sound. They are very responsive guitars. Other than that I really don't have any idea why. When I see guys on here talking about "that sound". I can only assume that this is what they are talking about.

Steven Welborn · Post by **Steven Welborn** » 19 Apr 2002 12:22 pm

Glen, no...it's something heard more while "milking" or letting strings ring AFTER bing plucked.Least that's my experience. Playing two string harmonies such as 6th interval (strngs 3+5 or 4+6)rides like you might play in a ballad, seems to really bring this tonal quality out even more so, at least to my ears anyway.

Winnie Winston · Post by **Winnie Winston** » 20 Apr 2002 3:37 am

When I built my first steel, I had the end plates cast. I made a wooden pattern, a bit larger to allow for shrinkage, and I took them to a caster. He imbedded them in sand, pulled out the wood, poured in the alumninum. Then I machined them down.
To get a real good casting that is free of air holes and bubbles is hard to find. I think that maching them from a billett is just as good.
I belive that the Mullen used to use a bent sheet end-plate-- maybe still does.

Winnie

Steven Welborn · Post by **Steven Welborn** » 20 Apr 2002 9:18 am

Thanks Winnie, I remember vaguely doing some castings in Jr.High metal shop. Very vaguely. Upon examining the Emmons endplates some more such a project looks more doable than I first thought.

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 20 Apr 2002 12:16 pm

I don't think anybody has done a really scientific analysis yet of what all the critical factors are. We now have the equipment (spectrum anaylzers and so forth) to find out what affects the tone in a positive manner, and how to "contour", or customize the sound. I think that so far, it's been a combination of common sense, and sometimes hit-or-miss experimentation, that's brought us to where we are today.

Steels now are more versatile, and stay in tune better, but their actual "sound" hasn't progressed one iota in the past 30 years, IMHO.

[This message was edited by Donny Hinson on 20 April 2002 at 01:17 PM.]

Doug Earnest · Post by **Doug Earnest** » 21 Apr 2002 7:25 am

Winnie hit the nail on the head. Casting aluminum is a black art, it is very hard to get one perfect. But,if you can live with some dimples, like the old Sho-Buds, you could probably get it done. What type of aluminum should you use?

------------------

Doug Earnest
Zum2000U12,Sierra12,Sho-Bud ProII D10 PV DPC 750 ProFex 112E, Fender Cyber Twin

chas smith · Post by **chas smith** » 21 Apr 2002 10:02 am

You could also look into a foundry that does spin casting. The centrifugal force on the mold makes for a better casting. Another possibility, if it was to be machined from billet and you didn't want an alloy that had come from an extrusion, would be to use aluminum tooling plate.

Casting aluminum is a black art, it is very hard to get one perfect. What type of aluminum should you use?

http://www.castingsource.com/tech_art_guide1.asp [This message was edited by chas smith on 21 April 2002 at 11:07 AM.]

Andy Alford · Post by **Andy Alford** » 29 Sep 2002 4:37 am

Does anyone have any more ideas about this topic?

Bill Ford · Post by **Bill Ford** » 29 Sep 2002 6:14 am

Just one ?? on p/p,
Body contact(when a changer finger is engaged)it is pulled tight against the wood of the body.This is what gives it THAT tone.If so,why do the strings not in contact sound the same?I know that's not all envolved in the sound/tone.

Chas...Would spin casting give you a density close to billet,discounting the formula aspect?? Also the density factor should make a difference in the bell sound.

Bill

------------------
Bill Ford

George Kimery · Post by **George Kimery** » 29 Sep 2002 10:04 am

Paul Franklin SR. told me many years ago that cast sounded better and he used the analogy also of being like a bell. I don't know if he still casts the end plates or if it was more of a sales pitch for his guitar, but anyway, since it is on the subject, thought I would throw it in.

Kevin Hatton · Post by **Kevin Hatton** » 29 Sep 2002 10:26 am

Listen to the DOCTOR. He KNOWS! Cast endplates ring like a bell. Emmons/Sho-Bud anyone?

chas smith · Post by **chas smith** » 29 Sep 2002 11:05 am

If so,why do the strings not in contact sound the same?

I think it's because the majority of the string vibrations going back and forth to the body of the guitar travel down the axle to the pillow blocks and then to the body. What's unique about PP changers is there's 2 long blades under each string and not much (a thin wire and or a single rod) touching them that would damp the vibrations that compliment the vibrating string.

Would spin casting give you a density close to billet,discounting the formula aspect?? Also the density factor should make a difference in the bell sound.

My understanding of why spin casting? is that it makes for less porosity in the casting and it helps fill all the spaces in complicated molds. Is it denser? I don't really know. If you use aluminum tooling plate for the machining, that would be the same as a casting. I machined the end plates out of billet for the guitar I made for Joaquin and it sounded pretty good when he played it.

Listen to the DOCTOR. He KNOWS! Cast endplates ring like a bell. Emmons/Sho-Bud anyone?

I have a bunch of Buds and an Emmons PP and if the end plates aren't screwed tightly to the body and there isn't a lot of surface contact where they can couple with the body then it's not going to matter a whole lot what they are made out of. Also keep in mind that anything that's attached to the end plates, like legs and pedal bars are going to be contributing to and/or detracting from their bell tones. It's not as simple as bolting a bunch of "ringy things" together.[This message was edited by chas smith on 29 September 2002 at 12:06 PM.][This message was edited by chas smith on 29 September 2002 at 12:14 PM.]

Danny Bates · Post by **Danny Bates** » 29 Sep 2002 12:15 pm

If it's cast it may sound better. I personally doubt it. However, if a person thinks it's true, it probably is.

If the endplates make such a big difference on a push-pull, then a S-10 should sound dramatically different than a D-10

However, the size, shape & weight would create the resonant frequency of the piece. Look at vibes. The tone bars are pieces of aluminum cut to different sizes. However, as soon as something touches them they quit ringing.

I personally believe that an Emmons Push-Pull sounds great because the changer puts more string contact into the body. You can feel how solid it is just by playing it.

If someone wants to make a true discovery, take a piece of cut aluminum and cast it. File them to the exact size and tune them exactly alike. Ask anybody if they can hear the difference.

Personally, I don't think it would make a difference because all aluminum is cast. That's how it's made.

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 29 Sep 2002 3:13 pm

Just putting my 2cents in...

Remember,a casting will ring, a forging, stamping, will thunk!

Funny...to the best of my knowledge, all tuning forks are forged!

Would spin casting give you a density close to billet,discounting the formula aspect??

I think the density would be more affected by the alloy. Voids in cast aluminum usually appear more near the surface than they do deep within the casting.

I had a sound in my head. And could not get it out of the Sierra...

Well, Sierras have a lot of aluminum. Maybe there is such a thing as "too much" metal in a steel guitar.

If the bell tone doesn't come from the player, then everyone who owns a push pull should sound like Buddy.

Boy, wish I had said that!

I think that maching them from a billett is just as good.

I'm inclined to agree. And the consistency is much better, too.

Personally, I don't think it would make a difference because all aluminum is cast. That's how it's made.

Welllllll...yes and no. Billets are rolled, and there's no doubt that the "working" of metal may change it's sound. Be that as it may, we know that castings can be inconsistent. (We've all seen it.) Whereas, machining from billets makes closer to "identical" parts. It is only with this repeatability that we can reach a consistent sound. Who wants "hit or miss" in a $5,000 instrument. Not the manufacturer, and certainly not the buyer, either.

Now, where do the inconsistencies come from? Even some "experts" have said that "not all p/p's have 'that' sound". Probably some of the difference comes from the wood itself, and the rest is...how it's put together.

The last steel show I was at had a Mullen and an Emmons being played side-by-side. I remarked to another player (a very good player) that the Mullen "sounded more like an Emmons than the Emmons did"!

He agreed.

Bob Simmons · Post by **Bob Simmons** » 2 Oct 2002 2:47 pm

Ah men, Don't forget the wood! We've tried many woods,castings,milling,etc-anyone ever had a guitar using walnut? Sounds great, similar to the old Bud. There are many combinations and no two steels will sound the same. Anyone priced castings lately? Guitar builders rarely make any money-it's a labor of love. So don't complain too much about prices.
By the way, a lot of the old Bud sound came from the full 3/4" all wood cabinet and don't forget George Lewis!
Bob Simmons
Simmons Steel Guitars

jim milewski · Post by **jim milewski** » 3 Oct 2002 9:51 am

Thats why I play push pull and ride an old Triumph twin...two sweetest sounds in the world....oh ya...wrenches always handy

Wayne Cox · Post by **Wayne Cox** » 3 Oct 2002 11:06 am

Believe it or not, I apprenticed as a "Bladesmith",before going into machine shop work during one of my lulls as a musician. I learned a lot about compressing the grain structure of metals. It all kind of comes down to this: if having a "Bell-like" tone is more important to you than having a bemish-free end-plate,then listen to Bobbe Seymore;he has done more thinkin' than thunkin'...I think!
W.C.