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Topic: Questions About Knees |
Jeff Scott Brown
From:
O'Fallon Missouri, USA
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Posted 13 Oct 2012 11:36 am |
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I have learned some tunes that involve a chord where I need to press the A pedal while engaging my left knee lever to the right. It is a bit of a contortion. I am rolling my pedal foot to the left so I can press the A pedal without pressing the B pedal. With just the pedals that feels fine but when I roll my foot to the left and simultaneously try to bring my knee to the right for the lever, that is when the awkward contortion comes in. I can do it but the difficulty makes me wonder if I am positioned optimally.
How much play do you like to have around your knees? That is, how much left and right movement do you have without actually engaging the levers?
I am not sure how far under the guitar I should have my legs. Do you engage the lever with the actual knee, or farther back into the thigh?
Any advice or comments would be appreciated.
Thanks!
JSB
Last edited by Jeff Scott Brown on 13 Oct 2012 8:22 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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John Polstra
From:
Lopez Island, WA, USA
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Posted 13 Oct 2012 11:59 am
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That's a hard move. I asked a similar question here once. The advice that worked the best for me was to lift your heel off the ground. Give it a try.
John |
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Carl Kilmer
From:
East Central, Illinois
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Posted 13 Oct 2012 12:22 pm
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When you tip your foot left for the A pedal, the knee lever
should also be left, to raise the E's . When you go right for
the B pedal, you just move your knee to the right to lower
the E's, unless your knee levers are installed backwards.
PS: My knee levers are about 5" from the knee, I find that
to be the most comfortable. I'm sure others will differ.
Also all of my knee levers are only about 1" from the leg.
_________________
aka "Lucky Kay"--Custom built Rittenberry SD10 3X5, Walker S/S, NV-112, and Hilton Pedal
Last edited by Carl Kilmer on 13 Oct 2012 12:33 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Jeff Scott Brown
From:
O'Fallon Missouri, USA
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Posted 13 Oct 2012 12:30 pm
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| Carl Kilmer wrote: |
When you tip your foot left for the A pedal, the knee lever
should also be left, to raise the E's . When you go right for
the B pedal, you just move your knee to the right to lower
the E's, unless your knee levers are installed backwards, |
I am trying to press the A while lowering the Es. Are you saying that there is no good reason to do that?
JSB |
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Jon Light (deceased)
From:
Saugerties, NY
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Posted 13 Oct 2012 12:46 pm
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This is one reason of several why I like the E lower on the right leg.
The move you describe can be difficult. Proper technique re: position at the steel, thigh vs. knee etc.---there is no 'proper'. You've got to find what works. You also should try to adjust that lever's angle. What kind of guitar? I like to tweak out a steel for the best personal fit and to tweak out my position for the best personal technique. There's a lot of stuff that requires finding your own solutions to match up your guitar and your body.
Shorter answer--it certainly can be done but may need some adjustments, body and steel to make it practical. |
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Carl Kilmer
From:
East Central, Illinois
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Posted 13 Oct 2012 12:48 pm
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Well I didn't say there's no reason, but I've never used
the A and E knee lever together. I just went out and tried
it, and now I will say there's no reason for it. I can't see
where it would fit in anything I do. I have no problem to
hitting the A and E lever, but it sure don't sound good.
I only play country, but maybe it works with other styles.
_________________
aka "Lucky Kay"--Custom built Rittenberry SD10 3X5, Walker S/S, NV-112, and Hilton Pedal |
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Earnest Bovine
From:
Los Angeles CA USA
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Posted 13 Oct 2012 1:04 pm Re: Questions About Knees
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| Jeff Scott Brown wrote: |
| ... I need to press the A pedal while engaging my left knee lever to the right. It is a bit of a contortion. |
Of course you should be able to use both P1 and LKR together. You don't say exactly what is wrong, but maybe the pedals are too far left, or the levers too far right.
You have probably already tried sitting in different positions. Before you disassemble the guitar and move pedals to the right etc, see if you can adjust the angle of the dangle of the levers, to make them less like this: || and more like this: / / |
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Lane Gray
From:
Topeka, KS
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Posted 13 Oct 2012 2:02 pm
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I have no more than a couple inches free travel on my knees before I start changing notes.
My levers usually hit my leg about one third of the way from kneecap to hip (I play D-10 mostly, and some U-12, on the Uni it's father out and feels weird to me).
I can see occasionally wanting a major second in a country context, why not?
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects |
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David Nugent
From:
Gum Spring, Va.
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Posted 13 Oct 2012 2:23 pm
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| Buddy Emmons used this combination in several of his arrangements (also the 'B' pedal LKL lever combination). |
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Jeff Scott Brown
From:
O'Fallon Missouri, USA
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Posted 13 Oct 2012 2:23 pm
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| Lane Gray wrote: |
| I have no more than a couple inches free travel on my knees before I start changing notes. |
That is helpful as a point of reference. Thanks.
| Lane Gray wrote: |
My levers usually hit my leg about one third of the way from kneecap to hip (I play D-10 mostly, and some U-12, on the Uni it's father out and feels weird to me).
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That is farther away from the knee than I have been positioned. I will play with moving forward a bit and see if that makes things more comfortable.
| Lane Gray wrote: |
I can see occasionally wanting a major second in a country context, why not? |
Agreed.
Thanks for the input!
JSB |
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Jeff Scott Brown
From:
O'Fallon Missouri, USA
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Posted 13 Oct 2012 2:28 pm
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| Jon Light wrote: |
| What kind of guitar? |
Right now I am working with a GFI Student Model. I have a GFI Ultra S10 on order. For now I am going to play with moving my body around see if I can find the sweet spot for me and the SM. I won't know how that is going to map to the Ultra until I get it.
JSB |
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Lane Gray
From:
Topeka, KS
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Posted 13 Oct 2012 2:39 pm
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One thing to think about:
A newbie will probably want more clearance than a guy who's been playing 30 years. First you learn the motions, then you learn to make them subtle. I think if my first guitars had the knees that close to my leg, I'd have been engaging them when I hadn't meant to
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects |
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Billy Carr
From:
Seminary, Mississippi, USA (deceased)
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Posted 13 Oct 2012 3:53 pm KL'ers
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| Why not just have your E KL'ers on your GFI that's on order put on the right leg and move everything else over the LKL,LKR & LKV. That's what I have. |
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Jeff Scott Brown
From:
O'Fallon Missouri, USA
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Posted 13 Oct 2012 4:00 pm Re: KL'ers
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| Billy Carr wrote: |
| Why not just have your E KL'ers on your GFI that's on order put on the right leg and move everything else over the LKL,LKR & LKV. That's what I have. |
I think the best answer for that which I have at the moment is that I have not played enough to know that what you suggest is what I want and that it wouldn't have other consequences. I am working with mostly standard setup stuff until I appreciate why I want to deviate from that. It may be that moving my Es to the right is what I end up wanting to do in the end.
JSB |
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Stan Paxton
From:
1/2 & 1/2 Florida and Tenn, USA (old Missouri boy gone South)
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Posted 13 Oct 2012 5:13 pm
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Jeff, If you want to use that combination, that is plenty of good reason to do it !  ...
Herby Wallace, 1 of my hero's, used that chord some on stuff, and used in the right places, is a good passing chord. ...I use it rarely, and is a little difficult since it is not a "natural" movement, however it can be done with some degree of ease with practice, and getting some "muscle memory" working for you. 
_________________
Mullen Lacquer SD 10, 3 & 5; Mullen Mica S 10 1/2 pad, 3 & 5; BJS Bars; LTD400, Nashville 112, DD-3, RV-3, Hilton VP . -- Gold Tone PBS sq neck; Wechter Scheerhorn sq neck. -- "Experience is the thing you have left when everything else is gone." -anon.- |
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Paul Sutherland
From:
Placerville, California
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Posted 13 Oct 2012 5:29 pm
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I have the E string lower lever on the right knee and I use it all the time with the A floor pedal. There lots of things that are possible when you split the E raise and lower levers to separate knees. Of course, there are some things you give up. Everything is a compromise.
Paul Franklin also has his E lowers on the right knee, so it's not just a nobody (me) that's advocating splitting the E string levers to separate legs, with the lowers on the right knee.
Maybe another YouTube video is in order. |
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Lane Gray
From:
Topeka, KS
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Posted 13 Oct 2012 6:23 pm
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Jeff, while the changes are (mostly) standardized, the placement is not.
The only essentially universal is that nobody moves the Es with LKV.
Every popular scheme makes some combinations problematic. I've talked to several players that couldn't play my steel and play like themselves, and I couldn't be me on theirs (LKV lowers 5&10, LKL raises Es, LKR lowers 'em, RKL raises 1 to g, lowers 6 to F#, RKL lowers 2 and 9).
I'm not thoroughly happy with my scheme, as I occasionally want RKL and RKR together (I hit the strings, and actuate the later of the two with my picking hand).
Separating the Es may happen for me so that I might have fewer conflicts. But I am not sure what would have the fewest: I'm thinking perhaps having Es to D# on RKL and Bs to A# on RKR. But if E raises stay on LKL, the 2&9 lower would have to go vertical (I sometimes combine those two). Does anyone have experience with a half-stop on a vertical? That sounds ODD
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects |
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Jeff Scott Brown
From:
O'Fallon Missouri, USA
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Posted 13 Oct 2012 7:00 pm
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| Lane Gray wrote: |
| as I occasionally want RKL and RKR together (I hit the strings, and actuate the later of the two with my picking hand) |
That is interesting. Are there any videos (with audio) on the internet which show you doing that? I am curious to see how quickly that can be carried out and how fluid that can be.
JSB |
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Jeff Scott Brown
From:
O'Fallon Missouri, USA
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Posted 13 Oct 2012 7:06 pm
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| Lane Gray wrote: |
| Jeff, while the changes are (mostly) standardized, the placement is not. |
I am hesitant to ask GFI to change the configuration for me at this point. I am sure they would do it but I think my preference is to start with the new machine configured with the pedals in the same place as my current machine and then possibly experiment with moving these things around later. I am pretty sure the Ultra allows me to fairly easily move these things around. Can any of you confirm that is correct?
JSB |
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Bill Nevins
From:
st.charles,Missouri, USA
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Posted 13 Oct 2012 7:25 pm
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| The first steel I bought from Wally Murphy had the raise and lower E's on the right leg and can't imagine them on the left.Of course I have trouble playing most other players guitars which is a small downside.. |
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Bobby D. Jones
From:
West Virginia, USA
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Posted 13 Oct 2012 8:25 pm Questions about Knees
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| Hi Jeff, I get the drift this steel was bought used. From your description your steel was bought set up this way. Some where along the way some one has changed the pedals from Day to Emmons setup, but did not change the Knee Lever set up to Emmons. My MSA bought used is set up Day with lower 4 & 8 E's LKL Raise 4 & 8 E's LKR. By pushing the A pedal, Raise E's and 3 frets forward You get the same Chord. Very confortable move just roll foot and knee together. At the 3 rd fret, A pedal down,Raise E's and it is another E Chord. This I use as one of my train sounds. You will probally have to change the Left Knee levers to Right knee to have comfortable playing. or go to Day pedals set up. Good Luck in which ever you choose and Happy Steelin. |
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Jeff Scott Brown
From:
O'Fallon Missouri, USA
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Posted 13 Oct 2012 8:28 pm Re: Questions about Knees
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| Bobby D. Jones wrote: |
| Hi Jeff, I get the drift this steel was bought used. From your description your steel was bought set up this way. Some where along the way some one has changed the pedals from Day to Emmons setup, but did not change the Knee Lever set up to Emmons. My MSA bought used is set up Day with lower 4 & 8 E's LKL Raise 4 & 8 E's LKR. By pushing the A pedal, Raise E's and 3 frets forward You get the same Chord. Very confortable move just roll foot and knee together. At the 3 rd fret, A pedal down,Raise E's and it is another E Chord. This I use as one of my train sounds. You will probally have to change the Left Knee levers to Right knee to have comfortable playing. or go to Day pedals set up. Good Luck in which ever you choose and Happy Steelin. |
I am not sure what I said that might have lead you to believe that I bought the thing used, but that isn't the case. I bought it new from Scotty's and since I bought it, no changes have been made. In fact, I am not even sure that the levers can be changed on the student model. In any case, nothing has changed on it since I bought it.
JSB |
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Lane Gray
From:
Topeka, KS
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Posted 14 Oct 2012 6:58 am
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| Jeff Scott Brown wrote: |
| Lane Gray wrote: |
| as I occasionally want RKL and RKR together (I hit the strings, and actuate the later of the two with my picking hand) |
That is interesting. Are there any videos (with audio) on the internet which show you doing that? I am curious to see how quickly that can be carried out and how fluid that can be.
JSB |
I'll try to shoot some this afternoon/evening. As for it being fluid, it's not been a problem
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects |
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mike nolan
From:
Forest Hills, NY USA
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Posted 15 Oct 2012 3:05 pm
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Jeff,
I'm just making sure that I know what you are after here, I'll talk notes for a minute.
No bar, strings 5A, 4L, 3 gives you a C# , D#, G#. That could be called a C#sus2 chord.....or a no third no seventh C#min9. The same notes are available with 5A, 3, 2, at the same fret, in a different inversion.... So if you don't really need to bend in and out of the chord, you can avoid the contortion.
The 5A, 4, 3, 2, gives you C#, E, G#, D#, which keeps the third in the C#min9... and you can add the use the lever lowering string 4 to bend into a unison with the D# on string 2.
I move my foot over a bit to the left and just press the A pedal straight down with no rocking off the B for this sort of move, or the reverse if I'm using the B pedal and the LKL. |
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mike nolan
From:
Forest Hills, NY USA
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Posted 15 Oct 2012 8:04 pm
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P.S.
Check out this video of Al Brisco.... pay attention to the way he moves his pedal foot around. It doesn't have to be locked into one position. It depends on what you need to do.
[url] http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y14CKpmv3qU[/url] |
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